Yesterday I was cleared for the ILS while still in CLass G airspace and outside of the Class D airspace?
Have I been cleared to enter controlled airspace.
I know for a fact when I am told “route direct to the XXX” where XXX is the NDB on the airfield. I am NOT cleared into controlled airspace and this will result in an infringement course.
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I know for a fact when I am told “route direct to the XXX” where XXX is the NDB on the airfield. I am NOT cleared into controlled airspace and this will result in an infringement course.
This is totally weird. If I cleared somebody to XYZ, resulting the aircraft to enter an area it´s not supposed to be in MY actions as an ATCO would be investigated, not the aircrews. Class E airspace is not such a bad thing.
Have I been cleared to enter controlled airspace.
Depends on who issued the clearance 
If it is Thames Radar, Southend Radar, then yes.
If it is Lydd Approach then no
Obviously the answer will also depend on whether the IAP in question is wholly OCAS or not. Most (all?) UK IAPs are either wholly in G, or wholly in D.
I know for a fact when I am told “route direct to the XXX” where XXX is the NDB on the airfield. I am NOT cleared into controlled airspace and this will result in an infringement course.
If it is a non radar unit then I agree; flying in UK Class G is “look after yourself” regardless of whether you are VFR or IFR.
If it is a radar unit then I would go straight to a lawyer. I had such a case a few months ago, talking to Southend, who cleared me DCT via their overhead, 3000ft, from quite a long way back in the south. I was below CAS throughout and would like to think that they checked this before clearing me, but I was recording the whole thing anyway (GPS and audio).
I had a situation a week ago, with Bournemouth Radar, EGHE-TINAN-SAM-EGKA. They were really good, when Solent refused a transit quite late in the game, and it was obvious the guy knew what he was doing relative to Solent’s CAS, but had he made a mistake, my recording would have been crucial, because the CAA never give you access to it (unless in a court). Even if your license is suspended you don’t get access to ATC audio.
The thing which could trap a “foreigner” is if say flying to Shoreham, from say the Manston direction, initially at 5000ft, and Shoreham ATC clear you to their IAP, 2200ft. If you don’t descend appropriately, you will clip the 4500/3500/2500 LTMA and you will get busted.
The really interesting variation of this is what if you are talking to London Control initially, you get a “cleared to leave CAS by descent”, and what happens if you then (having briefly left CAS) you clip a piece of it. This was done before in another thread. I actually asked the LC guy this Q and he said he wasn’t sure, but wasn’t himself concerned. You still are on his squawk so presumably CAIT would not flag you. If CAIT doesn’t flag you, and he doesn’t MOR it, nobody will find out.
What you absolutely must never do in the UK today is phone up ATC to apologise; I did that in 2019 and got busted for something which I am damn sure they would not have found (too brief) and dropped some decent ATCO in the s**t in the process.
Peter wrote:
Have I been cleared to enter controlled airspace.Depends on who issued the clearance
If it is Thames Radar, Southend Radar, then yes.
If it is Lydd Approach then no
Obviously the answer will also depend on whether the IAP in question is wholly OCAS or not. Most (all?) UK IAPs are either wholly in G, or wholly in D.
The IAP lies solely in Class D airspace and I was taking to the approach controller who controls that piece of airspace.
Peter wrote:
I know for a fact when I am told “route direct to the XXX” where XXX is the NDB on the airfield. I am NOT cleared into controlled airspace and this will result in an infringement course.If it is a non radar unit then I agree; flying in UK Class G is “look after yourself” regardless of whether you are VFR or IFR.
Again the whole of the IAP lies in class D airspace and I recived that ‘clearance’ from the the approach controller for the IAP.
Many years ago I was on A Radar Control service from Southend (I think). They gave me an instruction heading North. I obliged and was aware that I was heading straight into conflict with a neighbouring zone. ATC came on the radio as I was just about to call them up and say, “are you sure?” when they gave me a hard time for being there! I reminded them I was under RCS and was doing as I was told. They replied with “RCS terminates, resume own navigation”. I wonder what the outcome would be these days.
Peter wrote:
What you absolutely must never do in the UK today is phone up ATC to apologise; I did that in 2019 and got busted for something which I am damn sure they would not have found (too brief) and dropped some decent ATCO in the s**t in the process.
Did your initial PPL instructor not teach you the first lesson when dealing with authorities: “never volunteer information”? Mine sure did! We discussed dealing with the FAA (I was living in Texas), and bascially, only answer a question that has been asked, and answer exactly the question, and nothing else – because if you volunteer information you’re exposing yourself to additional scrutiny. This goes for exams too such as the oral exams in the US on a checkride.
The problem is that in the UK, failing to “volunteer“ information on an infringement, results in licence suspension and prosecution at the leisure and whim of the CAA, or the alternative of the Gasco course if you do volunteer the information.
Bathman wrote:
I know for a fact when I am told “route direct to the XXX” where XXX is the NDB on the airfield. I am NOT cleared into controlled airspace and this will result in an infringement course.
There is only 2 possibilities: Either you are cleared for any airspace that is between you and XXX or the person on the other side of the radio is vastly exceeding his competence up to a point that you should immediately sue them for endangering you and the safety of air traffic!
That is because either the other side of the radio is an ATC unit that is entitled to tell you where to go (also referred to as “radar”). The they obviously can tell you “go direct XXX”. But if they do so, they automatically give you any clearance required to go there.
Or the other side is not an ATC unit that can give you these clearances. Then they are by no means authorized to tell you where to fly either. They might tell you “I suggest to head xxx” or “You have to descent 1000ft if you want to maintain current heading w/o infringing airspace …”, but by no means “route direct XXX”.
I’m afraid that isn’t the case. In the UK you are off to the infringement course
