An appalling case, but he didn’t dispute the alleged infringement, so laid himself open to an action which merely gave him a faul taste in his mouth (a warning letter) without the CAA “team” having to produce any evidence.
That’s the great thing about warning letters. You can send one to 1000 people on whom you have rubbish evidence and 999 will keep their mouth shut, glad it wasn’t worse.
Also I am not sure you can “dispute” anything. The “team” is liable to send you an email saying “I am not engaging further in this conversation” so you don’t get anywhere. No dialogue is possible anyway, AFAIK, short of a court hearing.
Peter wrote:
That’s the great thing about warning letters. You can send one to 1000 people on whom you have rubbish evidence and 999 will keep their mouth shut, glad it wasn’t worse.
It is exactly as you suspect Peter, in that there is a degree of “secrecy” around this case, which is exactly your point. Simply, when “caught”, no one wants to talk about it.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
It is exactly as you suspect Peter, in that there is a degree of “secrecy” around this case, which is exactly your point. Simply, when “caught”, no one wants to talk about it.
Its an absolutely appalling state of affairs as for many, many years the whole ethos of aviation is to discuss safety issues openly.
It does appear that there is an increasing trend (generally, not just infringements) that in an incident, keeping your mouth shut it the best course of action.
Regards, SD..
alioth wrote:
Peter said he thought he made a momentary infringement, so unprompted, he called ATC to apologise.
Apologizing to officials is always a bad idea – not only in aviation. It’s simply not that our legal systems work like “yes he speeded through the city but he apologized and therefore it’s ok”.
In addition, apologizing has also nothing to do with safety. If I would share my experience of an airspace bust publicly (e.g. here) and discuss with fellow pilots, what I did wrong on that day and how I could have avoided it, it would contribute to safety. And if officials based on such a “confession” would start to investigate it would actually interfere with safety. But apologizing doesn’t. I don’t learn anything from apologizing and fellow pilots certainly not either.
Apologizing to officials is always a bad idea
Well, I think it depends on the “culture” you are dealing with. In Europe and no doubt the whole universe, the aviation regulatory scene is full of ex air force people. And not many are former fast jet pilots (i.e. the “elite” who have done it all and have nothing to prove to anybody). And many are from the “old culture” where they joined the national CAAs to continue their pension rights. Being a part of a disciplined society made up for a lot of things which “you” didn’t achieve. The military has a lot to offer; I applied to join the RAF when I was 16 (was turned down due to the likelihood of being a KGB agent) since they were offering £10/week for an engineering apprenticeship and in 1973 I saw no better options in the bleak England where shops closed on Wed pm and the weekend, and a Ford Capri was a real status symbol 
It’s also not a bad life from the POV of getting one’s inferiority complex regularly massaged because even if you are useless, and everybody knows you are useless, people will still salute your higher rank as you walk past. The modern military has moved on to Just Culture etc but these guys left many years ago.
And this is why an apology to ATC tends to work – everywhere. The specific English word is contrite and this is what they are looking for.
There is also a bit of this, not helped by the fact that a % of GA really does behave like that…
But of course you have to do it before they file the report. And in the UK you can’t do this anymore because the report (the MOR) is mandatory. If an ATCO keeps accepting apologies and keeps not filing MORs, he will eventually get fired.
Recent one from BoldMethod, this is how the US deals with flying in P-area by mistake (ok you get Secret Service interview and then good to GO, no GASCO for the poor chap )
Note that when I flew in the US, getting permission to fly in “serious TFRs” was a piece of cake: VFR FPL 1h before departure, not even a need to activate it, and be in contact with ATC 10min before for explicit clearance, I am sure many countries will need 100years to learn how to manage airspace in a similar fashion 
Peter wrote:
Well, I think it depends on the “culture” you are dealing with.
Obviously I did not make my point clear enough.
My key point was: Apologies are useless in such situations. It starts with the fact that if you feel the internal urge to apologize you should do so to the other pilot that might had to change the course due to your infringement or perhaps to the passenger of that airline flight that arrived its destination 5 minutes later. But apologizing to a random ATC officer for an airspace bust is like apologizing to a random person on the sidewalk that you overslept this morning.
Perhaps the one cultural aspect – but not on the side of ATC – is the concept behind the apology, that an airspace bust is something bad we do to ATC. That is very wrong! If we bust airspaces, we harm safety for other pilots and ourselves, but not for ATC. If you’d (many years ago) bully a school-mate there would have been also little sense in apologizin to his parents rather than to him.
My key point was that an apology is not useless if made to the person who might otherwise write up the report! That’s how the UK system, and that elsewhere in Europe, has worked for decades. Plenty of data from ATCOs (giving a bollocking to some pilot on the phone) on this topic…
Peter wrote:
My key point was that an apology is not useless if made to the person who might otherwise write up the report! That’s how the UK system, and that elsewhere in Europe
Just because it might have worked in the past does not mean, it’s right or good. When you slap me in the face it doesn’t change anything if you apologize to the policeman. It’ doesn’t matter for me and it doesn’t matter for the policeman. Would be an “interesting” world to live in if I could slap everyone in the face and would not risk any consequences as long as I’m quick enough to say “sorry” to the police.
And before that comes up: This is not about just culture – just culture has nothing to do with apologizing (because it is useless) but only with sharing experience and learning oneself as well as helping others to not make the same mistakes.
I am with Peter, if I have understood the discussion.
For me an apology is often a recognition that you have made a mistake, and you will not readily make the same mistake again. I appreciate apologies roll off the tongue of some who never have any intention of mending their ways, but I dont believe this is representative of the majority.
