Class E airspace

Ibra wrote:

What use would be a transponder to a glider?
- ATC separation: good luck separating gliders between themselves or giving them assigned heading/altitude to fly

I´ve crossed C airspace in gliders myself numerous times, that only works with a transponder, even went up to FL250 in wave. We (ATC) clear gliders into our TMA (class C) quite regularly, especially late in the day to enable a final glide back to the airfield that lies about 5 miles away from the international airport. A lot of gliders operated in our area are transponder equipped.
Separation is usually not a problem, these guys will often go at less than 60kts GS and rarely faster than 100kts. IFR traffic normally gets separated laterally or is kept above.

Thank you for being a reasonable ATC controller. Honestly and wholeheartedly.

Peter wrote:

That’s quite an old video AFAIK, dragging out – as all NATS videos always do – the usual muppet stuff about GA shutting down Gatwick etc, and I can’t watch the whole hour to see what London Info can see

Even according to this NATS-blog, it seems that they still looking on a paper chart. The article is from 2017 though, so it may have changed of course.

Peter wrote:

But London Info cannot be openly shown to have radar desks. The ATC unions would go crazy, for a start.

Why is that actually? Other countries can manage that too…

Caba wrote:

We (ATC) clear gliders into our TMA (class C) quite regularly, especially late in the day to enable a final glide back to the airfield that lies about 5 miles away from the international airport.

But that is without activating a glider area, right? Especially on weekends, crossing TMA’s in Germany is quite often a pain, because many times I get this refusal: “Due to active glider sectors, crossing not possible.” An ATCO from Langen told me once, that active glider areas are closed for motorized traffic and should be seen as a restricted area. Why is this? Aren’t there any vector possibilities, instead of a general refusal? I never had any similar issues abroad. In France they just say “watch out for gliders”. I have a great understanding for a Frankfurt TMA refusal, but a refusal for the entire Cologne TMA “due gliders”? I still find that a little bit weird.

To be honest, since I’m asking for a TMA crossing directly on the Radar-frequencies, I get more permissions, as by asking via FIS. Too bad that the DFS makes the Radar-frequencies more or less “secret” for VFR-traffic, since they want to force everyone to ask Langen Info first. Fortunately, there are SID and STAR-charts with APP-frequencies to bypass FIS…

Fundamentally, the difference is that all other countries in Europe have State (taxpayer) funded ATC.

Area services are provided by ATCOs who, if appropriate, have a radar qualification.

I don’t know about Germany but in France, AFAIK, they allow a radar screen in towers which can be “viewed” by a non radar qualified ATCO, or even a FISO. In the UK, it may be possible for a FISO to officially view a screen (I doubt it, and we discussed this recently, inconclusively IIRC) but the cost of the radar feed from NATS is reportedly 5 or 6 digits a year, so most GA airfields have to settle for a “nonexistent laptop” running FR24

Everything in the UK comes back to money and “ATC corporate” politics. Actually the UK operated cost recovery even before NATS was privatised.

There are lots of other complications. For example in the UK there has always been a lot of pressure put on the CAA to minimise CAS, which supposedly works for the benefit of GA but also minimises the cost of ATC provision. This has resulted in weird CAS shapes which are easy to infringe. But the UK isn’t the only one; France has large parts of it covered in virtually illegible airspace, but it doesn’t matter because ATC mosly clear you straight through. In the UK, everything involves giving birth / pulling teeth…

Frans wrote:

But that is without activating a glider area, right? Especially on weekends, crossing TMA’s in Germany is quite often a pain, because many times I get this refusal: “Due to active glider sectors, crossing not possible.” An ATCO from Langen told me once, that active glider areas are closed for motorized traffic and should be seen as a restricted area. Why is this? Aren’t there any vector possibilities, instead of a general refusal? I never had any similar issues abroad. In France they just say “watch out for gliders”. I have a great understanding for a Frankfurt TMA refusal, but a refusal for the entire Cologne TMA “due gliders”? I still find that a little bit weird.

This strange rule was cancelled in summer last year. Until then, we had to refuse most requests, we were just not allowed to let VFR traffic enter these areas. Now we can handle them as if they were airspace E. Because the glider areas are pretty large vectoring around means a huge detour. When all the areas are active, which is often the case on a summer weekend, the airspace around Cologne is almost entirely surrounded by glider areas, with tops reaching from 3500ft up to FL85.

Caba wrote:

Separation is usually not a problem, these guys will often go at less than 60kts GS and rarely faster than 100kts. IFR traffic normally gets separated laterally or is kept above.

Looks you have a practical CAN DO ATTITUDE Caba

Peter wrote:

Everything in the UK comes back to money and “ATC corporate” politics. (…) There are lots of other complications.

Got it! I really need to fly to the UK someday to experience this by myself. I’ve watched several YouTube videos from UK-pilots and always started laughing on this ‘everlasting’ “request basic service”, “basic service”, “basic service, stay outside controlled airspace”, “copied, basic service” … etc.

Caba wrote:

This strange rule was cancelled in summer last year. (…) Now we can handle them as if they were airspace E.

Interesting, that is completely new to me! Sounds very reasonable.

Ibra wrote:

Looks you have a practical CAN DO ATTITUDE

Fortunately, that is true for most German ATCO’s. Even the people on the Frankfurt Tower are very accommodating towards VFR-traffic. Out of my 5 requests, 3 requests to cross the CTR got approved in the last 2 years. Düsseldorf Tower even let me cross their CTR during rush hour with some vectoring. Really cool guys and girls. And also the military airports have super friendly ATCO’s. I once asked for a spontaneous PAR-approach in Fritzlar, which got approved immediately and was very educational.

But back to the original topic, regarding class E: In Germany, there are still several problems between VFR and IFR-traffic, including near misses, especially when airliners need to penetrate class E to approach airports without class C/D TMA’s up to FL100, like Dortmund, Paderborn or Kassel in our vicinity. A while ago, we had a airprox between a glider and an airliner in class E (source), more or less above our homebase. In my opinion, ADS-B is an important tool to prevent such events. I have nothing against an ADS-B obligation in class E, even for gliders. It would make the airspace a lot safer for us all.

I had the same experiences flying in CZ and SK. Not ONCE was I refused entry into CTR (or MCTRs) in a SEP, even Ruzyne (Prague) was a non-issue. Even getting permission to cross military training areas WHEN THEY WERE ACTIVE wasn’t a problem (just contacted military controller and asked nicely). I haven’t really started flying in the UK since I moved back here (just 1 hour in my log), but I feel extremely dissuaded from getting back in the air for obvious reasons. Maybe that’s the intention?

I posted this previously; it saves wading through the 2500 post thread

One can fly fine (VFR) in the UK and there is plenty of Class G, but you need to be quite defensive about it, and “pick your battles” with care. Assume you will not get a transit through any CAS, and if you do it’s a bonus. One usually does get it but often too late, by which time one has executed Plan B and done some massive dogleg. Lots of people have busted during the wait.

The UK isn’t like e.g. France where you can head for an apparently impenetrable mess of CAS and just tell ATC your route is X-Y-Z and they say “radar contact” and are as cool as a cucumber.

I regard mucking about under the 2500ft LTMA etc areas as extremely risky, due to the combination of CAS base and the ATZs, DAs etc, being monitored, and the new zero tolerance policy.

A foreign pilot is more likely to bust something, but also a foreign pilot is probably going to find that nothing happens afterwards (if the infringment was short).

What this means for Class E (where VFR is fine without radio, except maybe at night?) I don’t know, but for sure any TMZ is monitored exactly like CAS and you do get busted for that 100%.

Frans wrote:

Fortunately, that is true for most German ATCO’s

Never flew in Germany yet, I missed my chance last October due to weather, but we will give it a go next year !
But for sure it will be better than UK/Italy on airspace

Frans wrote:

regarding class E: In Germany, there are still several problems between VFR and IFR-traffic, including near misses

Too much Class E is a bit of an aberration, who has the resources to watch for IFR/IFR there (except few vertical transits)? let alone advise on VFR/IFR, but so some sort of ADS-B may help there

Actually, the long-term plan for most UK FIR is sort of US ADS-B where most of VFR under airspace will be on SMZ (Surveillance Mandatory Zones) that complies with EC specs (Electronic Conspicuity), but long way to get there as this will not fly high with fragmented airspace and “deadly” CAS busts