LeSving wrote:
when there are no scientific evidence that they actually do work (out in the public, preventing Covid-19 from spreading).
There is – was already quoted twice here
kwlf wrote:
and one sweet
I remember in the military. Testing and practicing gas masks. It was done inside a tent full of CS gas (tear gas). If there is a leak, you will know 
The “funny” part though was putting on the mask after entering the tent. The idea is to put on the mask and keep it on until the CS gas has cleaned up on the inside of the mask. Not particularly easy when all your instincts tell you to rip off the mask and run out of the tent (you have to try CS gas to know what I’m talking about). CS gas is used in training as a substitute for nastier stuff such as nerve gas, biological stuff and nuclear contamination, but it is also an agent all by itself.
Peter wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me most transfer happens in the home. You have kids, they will catch it, and they live with their parents… No sh*t Sherlock, as the saying goes
I really can not understand why they keep schools and kindergartens open at this stage. I am very unhappy that I have to send my kid there every day and yes Peter, you are right, this is most probably where our family, who is otherwise very careful and have been wearing masks since March in shops and wherever we could not distance, will eventually get it.
Peculiarproductions wrote:
This. I don’t understand how people could be anti-mask, it is simple to comply with, and even if it only has a small chance of helping, that is better than none and it doesnt hurt. Any small effort with potential for help makes sense to do.
Yesterday I was out in a shop with a friend and when we exited, we had to walk about 500 yards outside to our cars. We both wore masks as required in the shop and as we walked side by side and had no hands free, we simply kept them on outside, even though not required by law. Up comes a black car with some folks inside, who stopped next to us, showed us the finger, shouted abuse and insults at us before driving off. What more needs to be said.
That incident shows that the acceptance within significant parts of the population is just about zero. We have had incidents these days where people got violent when they were politely asked to put on their masks inside shops and public transport and would refuse to do so. There have been several arrests now of people who became renitent and violent in the process. And the trouble is, significant in this context does not mean 50% or so, 5% is quite enough to torpedize the whole effort.
The lenient attitude and the lies of the politicians in spring are now coming to haunt us out. In theory, if just everyone would keep to the simple rules of keeping their masks on in public and observing social distancing we would not need lockdowns. But it doesn’t work. People are too stubborn and too self centered to reckognize that a common effort and foregoing some pleasures for a few weeks would actually allow a much freer life after we stop this bugger, but no, they insist on behaving like 3 year olds in their tantrum phases.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I really can not understand why they keep schools and kindergartens open at this stage.
This is perhaps the most difficult question to answer. What would you do if you were a politician?
If you close schools, you also shut down significant parts of the social and healthcare sector (as many nurses, etc. are women with children that had to stay at home if schools are closed). In addition to that, children (as elderly people in care homes) are in high need of social contacts which are necessarily physical. So closing the schools for too long will do harm on their development.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
In the terrible days the Germans and British were lined up in the trenches staring at each other the commander would tell 1,000 troops to go over the top, the same each side. 950 would go over, even though they knew they wouldnt make it. 50 wouldnt go and, in those days, were probably shot were they stood. The next 1,000 and it would be the same even though they saw 50 had been shot.My point is there will always be those who abuse any system, the trick is that the majority, hopefully the vast majority comply.
I don’t understand the analogy here. Clearly the reasonable reaction would be that all of the 1000 troops would refuse to go since the attack would be pointless in any case.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I really can not understand why they keep schools and kindergartens open at this stage. I am very unhappy that I have to send my kid there every day and yes Peter, you are right, this is most probably where our family, who is otherwise very careful and have been wearing masks since March in shops and wherever we could not distance, will eventually get it.
Sweden have kept schools and kindergartens open throughout. Studies show that school staff did not get Covid-19 to any larger degree than the rest of the population. So it is very easy to understand why schools and kindergartens are open. It does not increase the spread of the disease and it has very clear social and economic benefits.
Malibuflyer wrote:
What would you do if you were a politician?
What they did in spring. Close the schools for normal operation, do home schooling via remote access. Offer care within the school buildings for those kids who can not stay at home. This worked quite well in spring. As there were significantly fewer kids and they could be kept in small groups of 3 to 5 per room with the necessary equipment to attend the remote schooling. Kindergarten was organized similarily, small groups, always the same kids together for those who could not stay home.
What I would have done being in a position to actually decide early this year is obvious from my posts I guess. I would have locked Switzerland down early in March latest after the first calls for lockdown came, I would have advised people to protect themselves with any masks they can find when they have to go shop and put a huge effort to get masks for everyone asap. I would not have re-opened to the extent they did in summer and locked down again the moment things got out of control in September. Also strict quarantine procedures (under guard) for anyone entering from countries with more infections than us.
The trouble is, as a single politician, even of minister level, you are not authorized to do these things without consent of your peers. This is what screwed the response in Switzerland up massively. The health minister was first very badly advised by his own ministry experts, secondly hampered by the pro-economy fraction and is also now again blocked and obstructed by members of the federal council who appear to wish to follow a herd immunity plan or don’t take the situation seriously
@Airborne _Again the point is that they didn’t refuse and thousands went to their death in what were obvious suicide missions with nothing to be gained. It was only after WW1 that people started to question if those responsible for sending soldiers to their death really knew what they were doing and that the collective could rise against such orders.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
What they did in spring. Close the schools for normal operation, do home schooling via remote access. Offer care within the school buildings for those kids who can not stay at home. This worked quite well in spring.
It’s good to hear that it worked in Switzerland – over here it didn’t (at least in the limited experience I have as dad of two children in school and member of the parents council in that school). Several reasons:
- Demand for day care in school was significantly higher than expected: It turned out, that about 30% of the children really needed that daycare because their primary caretaker had a job that required physical presence
- Small groups of 3 – 5 in that day care sounds really nice – and would be arithmetically not far from reality (given average class sizes of 23-25 and 30% of children needing it, the groups would more be in the ballpark of 7 – 10 but still in small groups). The core problem is (and was): Who should do the supervision of such groups? if you really want that small groups you need as many teachers to supervise than for normal school operations – but those teachers are required for tele-schooling!
- Results from so called “home schooling” are on average devastating. Basically, the children had vacation but not home schooling. Even first academic reviews show, that tele schools are dramatically increasing inequality amongst students: While the ones from “good” families (i.e. families where the parents are basically able and willing to teach their children the entire curriculum; typically very strongly correlated with social status) mad good progress and often even learned more than in normal school times, the ones from less privileged families did learn nothing during these times and even made negative progress.
All in: Another shutdown of schools would have significant effects on the entire system. We basically had to say “let’s neutralize this school year and start with the very same year again beginning next year”. That would be frustrating for the good student (esp. those close to graduation) but the only possible solution to avoid massive social inequality. The only remaining challenge would be how we cope in higher education with the fact that we have one year with no new graduates and (in several years) a “double cohort” when this years first graders and next years first grades are graduating together. But that can be handled…
Even first academic reviews show, that tele schools are dramatically increasing inequality amongst students: While the ones from “good” families (i.e. families where the parents are basically able and willing to teach their children the entire curriculum; typically very strongly correlated with social status) mad good progress and often even learned more than in normal school times, the ones from less privileged families did learn nothing during these times and even made negative progress.
Here, the same. There is a vast “underclass” where parents take practically no interest in their kids. Video schooling is almost completely useless there.
The govt here is resisting pressure for a national lockdown, and I hope they continue to do so. The economic destruction of such is massive, but a total lockdown is appreciated by those who want equality (i.e. everybody to be in the same sh*it ).
