Mooney_Driver wrote:
Maybe we will learn something from this. The flu was almost insignificant last year due to that. So we could actually win the fight against the common flu if we won’t revert to the disgusting habits we had prior to Corona. I would think, social distancing is a very good thing which might as well be kept on for ever. And to make masks for anyone who is ill with cold or similar things compulsory is also something which would work well, as the experience in Asian countries show.
Well, what should certainly be kept forever is people not going to work when sick. Everybody knows people who show up to work with a running nose, sneezing, coughing, complaining how sick they feel but appearing anyways just to show how cool or dedicated they are. The end result is that they infect various coworkers and the company suffers more than if everybody would just stay home when showing signs of infection.
Also, if somebody has a cold or flu but needs to be somewhere, e.g. buying groceries, it would be a good idea to have them wear masks.
LeSving wrote:
Are you serious?
Yes of course. Clearly not to the extent it is now, but it certainly won’t hurt to become more civilized again.
MedEwok wrote:
Well, what should certainly be kept forever is people not going to work when sick. Everybody knows people who show up to work with a running nose, sneezing, coughing, complaining how sick they feel but appearing anyways just to show how cool or dedicated they are. The end result is that they infect various coworkers and the company suffers more than if everybody would just stay home when showing signs of infection.
In order to protect the workers from ruthless or careless bosses it would have to be made a felony. But yes, that is one of the most important pieces of this cake.
MedEwok wrote:
Also, if somebody has a cold or flu but needs to be somewhere, e.g. buying groceries, it would be a good idea to have them wear masks.
That is what has been normal etiquette in Asia for a very long time. Whether it can be done without it being law here is much to be doubted, but it would be a good thing if it became socially unacceptable to be out and about without a mask if someone is ill.
Also most of the habits which really hurt us now are not that old. I can certainly do without the constant hugs and kisses which became fashionable recently before Corona stopped it or the hand shake mania. And I am sure most people would not mind to become a bit more socially distanced, such as not invading one’s personal space all the time.
And of course we would have to talk about high density venues, which I have always tried to stay away from. It would not hurt to reduce the number of people allowed in any enclosed space at all times. Queuing up does not have to be a full body contact experience, why not keep the 2 m distancing lines we have now? I don’t need to know what the person behind me in the supermarket had for lunch as he breaths down my neck…. or let alone the sardine conditions in almost all public transport, which is simply a breeding ground for just about any virus, not only Corona. How about imposing maximal numbers of people and actually enforcing it? Also home office is something I do hope will stay for ever. Also working and living conditions in places like that German meat factory have to come under scrutiny. They are inhuman not only during Corona times.
Of course we should be able to meet again face to face, have fun, go out for a meal or so. But a bit more decorum and distance would certainly not be wrong.
I am not entirely sure about your theory long term. When I read Biology I recall there was a reasonable amount of evidence that a child’s immune systme is heavily primed by the Mum, and the infections to which she has been exposed. Without this, the newborn would be pretty vulnerable until their own immune system starts to establish itself. If adults were never exposed to viruses or bacterial infections over perhaps long periods of time it could be the case that infants would be more vunerable. I know it is usually dismissed that some expsoure to infections in adults strengthens the immune system, but I am not sure whether this is research based. There is certainly now some evidence that exposure to a complex gut flora is positively protective against some diseases, and that the much more limited gut flora most of us have isnt ideal. Doubtless this is a complex area, and it just could be the case that hugely limiting our exposure to infections may be detrimental in the long term for our species.
I reckon people coming to work, going to gyms, etc, with colds etc is the main source of these infections.
It is really antisocial, but most working-age people are really close to the line financially. They load up with debt and obligations and tanks (big 4×4s) and can’t just take a day off work just because they or a kid has a sniffle. The kid will go to school.
Handshakes are bad too but the customer’s hand must always be shaken (=€€€€) and there is no need for you to stick a finger up your nose afterwards. Maybe some people will remember to not do that. But I doubt it, because at least 99% of people filling up their cars (I work within sight of a petrol station) take no precautions on holding the pump nozzle, so I think mankind has no hope…
The govts will make big changes behind the scenes, however. Like not ever again hoping that China can deliver usable PPE when urgently needed. And having a 100% domestic vaccine capability.
BTW this is another good site for the UK. These are interesting:
Peter wrote:
The govts will make big changes behind the scenes, however. Like not ever again hoping that China can deliver usable PPE when urgently needed. And having a 100% domestic vaccine capability.
I hope you are right.
I suspect all forgotten in 20 years time and back to where we are, but with luck vaccine technology will provide a quicker and more robust response.
@Fuji_Abound You are right that our immune system needs constant “training” (= exposure to pathogens), or it starts to go off the rails (= autoimmune diseases, allergies). Not just important for mothers, but especially for kids and teenagers.
I still don’t think being more socially distant and hygienic, as has been the norm in Korea or Japan, is problematic. Afaik these countries do not suffer from higher numbers of autoimmune diseases or allergies than western societies.
Peter wrote:
It is really antisocial, but most working-age people are really close to the line financially. They load up with debt and obligations and tanks (big 4×4s) and can’t just take a day off work just because they or a kid has a sniffle. The kid will go to school.
This may be correct for the US, but in Europe most (all?) countries have Lohnfortzahlung im Krankheitsfall, meaning employees who call in sick get paid normally at least for a limited amount of time (in Germany up to 6 weeks/year). So staying home because you have a common cold should – in theory – not lead to any economic disadvantages. Of course, this is different for self-employed people, although they can (and should) be insured against economic losses from own health problems, at least to the extent we are talking about here.
meaning employees who call in sick get paid normally at least for a limited amount of time
In the UK too, but there are well lubricated ways to game the system, and employers will eventually jump on somebody doing that. I could tell stories from my first business, 1978-1991, which reached 35 employees.
And yes many people are self employed or working under some form of zero hour contract. It’s a tradeoff between earning more (and being more employable) and having less security, and earning less and having more security, and those “less keen to work” go for the latter 
In a small company especially, you really cannot afford to have somebody playing games…
The UK has just had an explosion in positive tests – about 53k in one day. These are mostly symptomatic people. As usual there is no age etc breakdown, which would be really interesting. We all know the number of tests is subject to lots of factors and errors but this is staggering. It is very likely from the xmas socialising. I did my last flight today before the Annual in early January and I suspect some real restrictions may be coming because doubling the hospital load in say 2 weeks’ time is going to be serious.
MedEwok wrote:
countries have Lohnfortzahlung im Krankheitsfall, meaning employees who call in sick get paid normally at least for a limited amount of time (in Germany up to 6 weeks/year). […] Of course, this is different for self-employed people, although they can (and should) be insured against economic losses from own health problems,
Be careful assuming things in your home country are replicated elsewhere!
In Ireland, you don’t get any support from the state for your first 3 days of sickness (per incident). There is no requirement on employers to pay any sick pay.
I’m not aware of any insurance for self employed which would pay out for such a thing. Usually there are for more long term, serious sicknesses.
It’s easy to see such sick leave/insurance being abused too. If we all took a week off because we had a runny nose or a bit of a cough (or our child had) productivity would fall dramatically during winter.
In the year before I retired, the Labour Scottish Minister for Education expressed concern at the average absence rate for teachers, and warned those significantly different from this would be investigated.
If every teacher and pupil with an occasional sneeze went home, in winter there would be no education in Scotland.
I had no absences for illness in 43+ years. I must have been significantly off the average, but nothing happened.
dublinpilot wrote:
Be careful assuming things in your home country are replicated elsewhere!In Ireland, you don’t get any support from the state for your first 3 days of sickness (per incident). There is no requirement on employers to pay any sick pay.
Sweden has a one day delay, but it was waived very early in the pandemic.
