Peter wrote:
No other country has so much nuclear power, and wind power does almost nothing for the wider picture of high speed electric trains which use an awesome amount of power. 16MW is a lot more than the 3MW from a wind turbine. Even allowing for slower trains it still doesn’t compute, for a national rail network, without nuclear
There is no logic to your statement, Peter. Where or how electricity is generated does not matter for electric trains. As long as there is enough in the grid. You can run an entire train network on wind power, with enough turbines. And if you have a large enough (I.e. continent sized) “smart grid”, the wind will always be blowing somewhere.
Germany already produced 46% of its electricity through renewables in 2020, the majority of which is wind power. So nearly half of the energy used to power our trains is from renewables
MedEwok wrote:
So nearly half of the energy used to power our trains is from renewables
Are you sure? In many countries the rail network has its own power generation capacity and is not run from the ‘normal’ grid. No idea about the mix of renewables for Germany if that’s indeed the case. In any case, the percentage of nuclear is very high (compared to other countries) in France.
16MW is a lot more than the 3MW from a wind turbine.
Good thing the new turbines built now are 12MW then, and an average new wind park project about 1GW….
There’s two aspects – one, renewable energy doesn’t stop high speed trains from operating, as attested by Spain’s extensive TAV network (bigger than the French) and its 40% renewable gen share. Two, the green initiative won’t change anything in France, the number of routes that can be switched to rail are marginal. Rail transport (and public transport) in general is a disaster unless you stick to the main lines radiating from Paris. Try crossing France by public transport along the “Diagonale du Vide” running from the SW to the NE corner.
MedEwok wrote:
Where or how electricity is generated does not matter for electric trains.
That is totally illogical. To shut down “CO2 generators” like cars, oil heatings and airplanes but to turn a blind eye on coal electricy plants is simply a clear proof of the fact that most of this whole eco hype has nothing to do with the environment but with the attempt of the left to change society.
This is the same thing as the exit from nuclear power, which in itself is COs neutral, while pushing for coal and other power. These things are opposing each other. nuclear is as close to clean power in terms of CO2 and capable of mass power production as it gets, at least today. Similarily we see regular obstructions of environmentalist circles whenever new hydroelectric projects are presented, which also are generating electricity with very few CO emissions.
Trying to force the population onto electric cars, which are expensive, which waste huge ressources with their batteries and which make people more dependent on electricity only to hike pricing for the said once people are dependent, goes into the same kind of thing.
Where or how electricity is generated does not matter for electric trains. As long as there is enough in the grid. You can run an entire train network on wind power, with enough turbines. And if you have a large enough (I.e. continent sized) “smart grid”, the wind will always be blowing somewhere.
Germany already produced 46% of its electricity through renewables in 2020
If a country produces say 46% via renewables, then (when making the CO2 argument) you first need to consider the CO2 generated in the manufacture and maintenance of these (which is considerable, and wind turbines specifically have maintenance issues which are constantly being swept under the carpet, with many having to be scrapped after just 5 years) and then remember that any electricity used in that country is 54% from other sources. So an electric train running in Germany is running 54% from burning coal or gas (soon to be Russian gas – Mr Putin is a nice friendly guy 
). You can’t (a) pretend renewables are CO2-free (even though practically everybody does that) and (b) allocate all the renewables to your current favourite consumer (in this case trains)
@Peter to make your argument valid you would have to compare the CO2 generated in the manufacture and erection of a wind turbine or 200×12MW with the CO2 expended in the construction of a 2400MW power station.
@T28 I think you chose a bad example “Try crossing France by public transport along the “Diagonale du Vide” running from the SW to the NE corner”
First when you talk of public transport you are talking in this case of trains I take it?
But it is very possible to get from SW France eg Bordeaux to NE France Nancy, Metz, even Luxembourg. It takes somewhere between 6 and 8 hours. I am not sure what flights are available these days from Bordeaux direct to one of those places, but last time I tried the train was going the day I wanted to go, the flight wasn’t.
But that distance and those sort of places was the reason I first took my PPL.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
the attempt of the left to change society.
Please, @Mooney_Driver. We all know that you have a strong dislike of “the left”. Well, I have a strong dislike of conservatism, but I don’t feel the necessity of constantly pointing that out. This is an aviation forum after all.
It is fine to object to specific things, proposals or decisions related to aviation, but let’s keep the ideologies to the political thread, shall we?
with the CO2 expended in the construction of a 2400MW power station.
The power station was probably built decades ago, whereas the wind turbines have a very short life in comparison.
There is a lot of disingenuity used in promoting “green” issues; the reality is more complicated, and that’s before you get onto the stuff with buying gas from Russia which causes major long term issues elsewhere.
@MedEwok
The problem is that it isnt always windy somewhere within one country or sunny all the time either. Luckily the “power in the grid” that you talk of isnt just within one country in Europe, the private companies sell electricity across borders so that at night when it isnt very windy the french nuclear power stations run german electric trains just as Polish coal and oil fired power stations do.
How does over 50% of German electricity get generated 
Had a young lady call trying to sell me “green electricity from 100% renewables” the other day who obviously had no concept of how power grids work – unsolicited call, so I like to play with them sometimes…
Regards, SD..
But many power stations including nuclear ones are now coming to the end of their useful life which is why decisions have to be made now. In the UK market in the 90’s following privatisation of the CEGB many prospective electricity producers turned to small Gas Turbine power stations. It was the only way they could make the figures add up.
Sizewell B took around 20years I think it was, to plan and get planning permission to build before even a sod could be turned and it cost a huge amount of money. It is why EDF and the Chinese have sought cast iron guarantees before investing in Hinckly Point.
Drax, originally the largest coal fired power station in Europe and one of the newest, couldn’t compete and still meet envronmental regulations (much of it to do with acid rain, not CO2). Now I believe it runs on walnut shells, or other such things.
Producers in Norfolk and Suffolk are generating electricity from chicken crap and old tyres and others turned to waste incinerators.
Then renewables, thanks in a small way, because grants became difficult to get, to Goverment subsidies, were able to compete, especially with coal.
The National Grid now buys in much of its electricity from France (and through them, other European countries )Norway (if the link is open yet) Scotland etc for what is called peak lopping.
That runs alongside contracting large users to shut down in times of heavy demand.
The UK simply does not generate enough of its own electricity to securely meet peak demands well into the future. There is so little reserve.
But as the industry is private and relies on market forces the question is "what technology does an investor, invest in in order to compete and still make a profit?
