That isn't true. They can't be paid for taking them. If the flying is incidental to the business you can take clients or employees.
The FAA allows a pilot to be reimbursed for operating expenses if the pilot is using his own aircraft or for the rental fees if renting. This is permitted compensation when no passengers or property are involved.
If passengers are involved, neither the private pilot or the passenger may be compensated for their expenses and each must pay a pro rata of the operating or rental expenses.
The FAA General Counsel has issued clear opinions on this subject.
Is that really the case in the US? The PIC can't log PIC time while someone else is handling the controls? So an instructor can't log PIC time while his student is handling the controls? A captain on a 737 can't log PIC time while his co-pilot is handling the controls?
My comments deal with two pilots in an aircraft certified for single pilot operation. If the aircraft requires more than one pilot, as is the case in a 737, the captain can log the entire flight as PIC without ever touching the controls. An instructor when performing the duties of an authorized instructor may log PIC for the entire time, regardless if they touch the controls. This even applies to instrument flight instruction in actual conditions, the instrument flight instructor can log approaches performed by the pilot receiving instrument instruction that count towards the instructor currency.
Another anomaly, assume the student is not rated in a multiengine airplane and the other pilot is not a multiengine instructor, but is multiengine rated on his pilot certificate. They conduct a flight where the rated pilot is the PIC but the non rated pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls. Neither pilot may log PIC, the non rated pilot because he is not rated in a multiengine aircraft and the rated pilot because he was not the sole manipulator of the controls.
Same goes for the logbook comments. In the US, the only logbooks associated with an aircraft are maintenance logbooks recording work performed on the plane and referenced to time in service. No record is kept at all of who flies the aircraft, or (obviously) who was PIC if there were two pilots on board.
I agree in principal, but even the permanent aircraft records only need to keep very limited information. Most logbook entries only need to be kept until the work is repeated or one year has lapsed. After that, the record may be destroyed or tossed. There is a requirement that records be kept, but not the form in which they are kept such as a logbook. This includes log entries for annuals, 100 hour inspections, most maintenance and preventive maintenance. However, the common practice is to put all of these entries into logbooks and keep them if for no other reason than eventual resale.
The FAA General Counsel has issued clear opinions on this subject.
I am talking about where a company employee or owner is flying for business. The company leases the aircraft. Other employees or guests can come without it being a commercial operation.
This is where it is good to write a longer posting, with more detail, Jason.
even though cost sharing in an N-reg is illegal anyway in UK airspace
After you cross the water (Channel) it becomes legal??
An extremely similar event occurred to a friend of mine this past summer. Friend A was seen to exit the left side very injured. Other occupant B, who owned the plane, was seen to exit the right side, only slightly injured. I'm amazed they were not both killed. A is the vastly more experienced pilot, and said that he took over after the EFATO. It still did not work out well.
I have not heard the legal details, but I can imagine that A is hoping for some compensation from B's insurance, as A is declaring himself a passenger in the flight.
In another wholly different event, another friend C is riding along to familiarize new owner D, They run it out of gas. D was flying left seat, and C just watching, but surprise, D is found to not have a license at all, so C is instantly PIC, and takes the penalty for the offense of running out of gas. D takes the hit on the uninsured plane. Yeah, it was dumb to run out of gas, but know who you're riding with, if you think they are PIC!
After you cross the water (Channel) it becomes legal??
Cost sharing in a non-G-reg is illegal in UK airspace due to the "aerial work in foreign regs" ANO clause (used to be article 115).
It is probably illegal in other airspaces in Europe too, but there is no easy way to find out - you would need a local language speaker to wade through their national aviation law.
The bottom line, however, is that while it has been enforced (in cases where somebody admitted to it after somebody else spilt the beans on them, usually) in the UK, nobody will know you are doing it abroad, so a lot of training in N-regs is done in say France.
D is found to not have a license at all, so C is instantly PIC, and takes the penalty for the offense of running out of gas
That is outrageous, surely!
That means that if I (a pilot with valid papers) fly as a passenger, I need to check the pilot's papers.
And if the courts (the CAA) did go after me in that case, I would then have to sue the putative pilot for damages.
That was in Canada, correct? Would that stand up in the UK?
This sort of stuff gets my head spinning - I need to carry a lawyer around with me!
Frankly it's so complicated, one wants to just forget it and hope for the best ;-)
I agree Warley... The amount of scenario's seem endless. Shall we extend this thread to automobiles? Ah, maybe not..
