Jujupilote wrote:
I would have a thousand questions for the OP
Go for it!
I guess the OP couldn’t ferry the plane for 8 months.
Negative. The deal was: the seller flies the plane to Katowice and gives Greg 3-4h to do a final inspection – and then either I pay or walk away (even without giving a reason). This was the most convenient for me – I would be afraid to ferry the plane myself (having no experience on PA-28 whatsoever at that stage) and asking someone else seemed difficult from the insurance standpoint. Also at that time Greg the mech didn’t have any time slot available soon for travelling to Slovenia to have a look at the Arrow’s condition for me.
Before this ferry I spent half a day in Slovenia, looking at the plane and going through the records, and then paid the seller for fuel Slovenia-Poland-Slovenia plus a little more to cover expenses and give them good incentive to play by my book. Only when the aircraft arrived at EPKM and I got a clear “go” from Greg we proceeded with signing a contract, actual payment and handing all the papers … unfortunately together with the Slovenian certificate of registration, which should have stayed with the seller!
The engine was simply run on the ground time and another, so that it didn’t have to be preserved.
After the ferry, the plane was sitting in a hangar some 15 min drive from where I live. Before some actual work on the airframe and the engine started in the autumn, I just run the engine time and another on the ground. So it didn’t have to be preserved. These ground runs were difficult in that all the time I had to resist being tempted by lots of light spirited club people – Oh come on, forget the paperwork, let’s go fly it! It arrived here from Slovenia all okay, didn’t it? :)
Besides, I am disappointed to see that an arrow is a 2 seater with full fuel and a 2+2 with fuel to tabs.
Agree that’s a disappointment and actually my main reservation. If my googling is correct, roughly speaking, TB10 has +20 kg(?) useful load (but -15 kt cruise), Cessna 182 or TB20 +100 kg (but +80 kEUR). On the other hand, fuel at tabs is in this case 50 gallons, which means roughly 4h 45m until dry. My longest leg ever on a family trip was I think 03:34 takeoff to landing. I think in many cases I could happily trade another 10 gallons against extra baggage, if I only ever find a reliable way of ensuring I am taking off with exactly 40 gal in these low wing, difficult to dip tanks.
In the meantime I am applying a strategy that works well in my other hobby (which is caving) – pack light! :) Weather being poor during the weekend, I just finished my rough but lightweight, trip-grade tow bar (550 grams). I will also be trying a lightweight tie down kit (also merely 500 g) on aluminium pegs … and I am now contemplating a lightweight canopy (just for occasional use on trips, as at home the plane enjoys a proper hangar).Mateusz wrote:
if I only ever find a reliable way of ensuring I am taking off with exactly 40 gal in these low wing, difficult to dip tanks.
Obviously a fuel totaliser is the way to go in the long run.
But in the short term, get one of these fuel dip sticks
https://www.pooleys.com/shop/j-air/fuelhawk-fuel-gauge-universal-11-inch/
Then empty one thank (if it’s like the Arrow II that I fly you won’t have to completely empty it for the fuel to be “empty” at the bottom of the filer cap). Add 10ltrs and measure it on your dip stick each time to calibrate it.
I’d also suggest that for the next while you take a note of the fuel before flight and after flight along with the flight time, ground time, altitude flown and tacho to get to understand what fuel you are really burning. (For me, tacho bore closest relation to fuel actually burnt).
It will give you more confidence in your fuel calculations until you get a totaliser.
Congratulations and welcome to the Arrow club 
I would install a totaliser tomorrow
Peter wrote:
I would install a totaliser tomorrow
I thought I have one in the EDM900! My unit indicates Fuel used, Fuel remaining etc. Also the manual has a whole section devoted to “Fuel Flow Operation” and it says these figures is computed from the fuel flow, independent of fuel quantity gauges etc etc.
What kind of accuracy should I expect from the EDM reports? Do you guys think this is (far) inferior to a dedicated fuel totaliser unit?
dublinpilot wrote:
Obviously a fuel totaliser is the way to go in the long run.
How do you use fuel totaliser to ensure a particular fuel quantity at beginning of flight? Asking completely seriously, I never used one before! I understand you always need to bootstrap it, telling the device an initial amount of fuel when you are 100% certain of quantity on board (… and this can be done only with full tanks or if you refuel after draining the tanks dry, which is rather troublesome?). And then, the longer you fly, the more the computed amount of fuel drifts from reality? I also do understand this drift is small, otherwise it would all not make any sense, but is it small enough so that you can handle multiple trips and refuellings? Say:
Are your totalisers reliable and accurate enough to rely on them in this way?
But in the short term, get one of these fuel dip sticks
https://www.pooleys.com/shop/j-air/fuelhawk-fuel-gauge-universal-11-inch/Then empty one thank (if it’s like the Arrow II that I fly you won’t have to completely empty it for the fuel to be “empty” at the bottom of the filer cap). Add 10ltrs and measure it on your dip stick each time to calibrate it.
Again, what are your experiences? What kind of accuracy can you expect from such a dipstick in a Piper? Can you get down to say +/- 2 gal in real world conditions (uneven aprons, not 100% repeatable measurement procedure etc)? I had very good experiences with our club C172 dipstick, its readings used to match well with other estimation sources … but then everyone says C172 tanks are very good for dipping, unlike these in high dihedral low wings…
I’d also suggest that for the next while you take a note of the fuel before flight and after flight along with the flight time, ground time, altitude flown and tacho to get to understand what fuel you are really burning. (For me, tacho bore closest relation to fuel actually burnt). It will give you more confidence in your fuel calculations until you get a totaliser.
Yes, that was roughly my plan. Start conservative, collect data on real trips, and only then try optimizing. In other words, tell the family we first do hotels, and only then advance to tents, sleeping bags, climbing gear and what else. I am well aware it’s easiest to get killed by either fuel planning or weather, so I am taking both seriously… I didn’t think about the tacho though – thanks!
A fuel totaliser has GPS and calculates from your speed and distance the remaining fuel on board upon arrival.
Nice.
But with some math you derive that from your EDM..
My EDM700 gives very precise fuel indications. I cannot estimate the amount of error because it is too small.
And on another note, the 550 g travel towbar:
A fuel totaliser gets the flight plan data from a GPS. Do any totalisers contain a GPS? It would not make sense, even just the extra antenna.
It knows the current flow rate and the remaining amount, and from the GPS data it gets the remaining time to the last waypoint. But more often it works in the opposite direction: the totaliser sends the flow rate and the remaining fuel to the GPS and the GPS works out the LFOB (landing fuel on board), and that way is better because your GPS has a much better user interface than your totaliser.
An EDM700 (with the fuel option) is as accurate as any totaliser. It gets the above GPS data from a separate GPS. Or probably more likely (my EDM700 doesn’t have the fuel flow option) the other way round, and that’s what I have. EDM700 → KLN94 only.
How do you use fuel totaliser to ensure a particular fuel quantity at beginning of flight?
You fill the tanks up and manually enter how much fuel there is. In the TB20 it is 86.2 USG. You cannot set a higher figure; in the factory config there is a ceiling.
the longer you fly, the more the computed amount of fuel drifts from reality?
Yes, but not much. A few litres max. There are temperature variations and fairly big fuel pump accuracy variations especially in certain southern countries… The pump accuracy matters because even though you should always fully fill the tanks to check it, it is done by comparing the pump reading with the “fuel used” on the totaliser.
Avoid partial tank fills if possible. But yes it should still work. Just don’t slip up with the numbers For a classic treatment of that problem, albeit without a fuel totaliser, google the accident report on G-OMAR.
You don’t need a fancy fuel totaliser. This is mine, and it works perfectly (after the ex Socata cockups got sorted).
An EDM700 (with the fuel option) is as accurate as any totaliser.
When I did a 5 hr non-stop flight from Rochester EGTO to Venice Lido LIPV in my Piper 28 Arrow IV Turbo, my EDM 700 showed consumption was within ¼ litre of actual usage.
Late to the party. Fantastic news, congratulations. Very nicely equipped bird (ah, sorry, fox) you got there. It screams for a GFC500 ;)
Wish you many happy flights in it and keep us updated!
Peter_G wrote:
Stability & smoothness in the cruise (98% of one’s flying time).
In my limited experience with T-tail Arrows – correct, feels more stable.
