I don’t mean liberal as individuals, no doubt the UK has as many bigots as anywhere else, but as a society. Our laws allow a lot of personal freedom, which gives a lot of leeway to illegal migrants.
As one simple example: you can drive a car in the UK without carrying a driving licence (or any other means of identity), insurance certificate or vehicle registration document, that would be illegal in France for example. It would inconvenient to be without documents, but not illegal.
The UK legal system starts from a quite different premise from most of the rest of Europe, and the judiciary is powerful. All of this is an historical accident rather than any great merit on the part of the Brits.
Nevertheless all this is great if you are an illegal migrant.
I guess that one reason for the UK reluctance to join Schengen is that we would have to modify our personal liberties (down to the same level as the rest of Europe) in order for it to work effectively.
According to Merriam Webster, liberal means “not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted”. Given that in the UK every political argument seems to end at Oliver Cromwell, I have a hard time coming up with a country less liberal than the UK.
Ted.P wrote:
As one simple example: you can drive a car in the UK without carrying a driving licence
Yeah right, that’s why there are 5.9 million surveillance cameras in the UK, many of them registering license plates, so it’s not just inconvenient to drive around london “without any means of identity”, it’s pretty much impossible.
Ted.P wrote:
It would inconvenient to be without documents, but not illegal. […] Nevertheless all this is great if you are an illegal migrant.
Yes, you got a point here. You will never find an illegal immigrant in Germany ride the bus/train without ticket because that is how they get caught. If you can’t ID yourself, you’ll be held in custody until you’re ID’ed (provided there is a reason in the first place). One would not leave the house without ID normally as the hassle can be significant. Having said that, I was never unexpectedly asked to ID myself in my whole life in Germany.
The UK made one big mistake years ago: they allowed unlimited migration from Eastern Europe several years before EU treaties required it. The other countries kept it restricted for as long as they could. That was due to the banking fuelled hubris of unlimited growth and credit-funded prosperity.
tomjnx wrote:
According to Merriam Webster, liberal means “not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted”.
That’s only one definition of the word, and one that is most common in the United States. “Liberal” in the UK isn’t a dirty word like it is in the US, and most people in the UK are pretty liberal (in the meaning of the word ‘tolerant and open minded’). There are of course plenty of bigots, but there are many more people who are not bigoted at all and are welcoming to anyone they meet regardless of ethnicity and national origin. Funnily enough, some of these bigots go and use the EU’s freedom of movement to move to a sunny country like Spain. After complaining about all these migrants taking their jobs and not speaking English, they do exactly that to the Spanish.
The UK is generally a popular place for economic migrants not because it’s a pushover or benefits are liberally given out to all comers, but because of the English language. English is a lot more popular to learn than say German or French. If you’re looking for a new place to live for economic reasons, you’re probably going to pick one where you can speak the language. The UK being in or out of Schengen isn’t going to change this.
alioth wrote:
If you’re looking for a new place to live for economic reasons, you’re probably going to pick one where you can speak the language.
The largest factor according to studies is where you find people of your culture/origin. Once half the village has moved to the UK, the other half will follow as everybody has an uncle/cousin to stay with and help to get started.
The UK being in or out of Schengen isn’t going to change this.
That I am absolutely sure of. Therefore my answer to UK citizens complaining about hassle in international travel is very straightforward: join Schengen, there is nothing special about you…
Unfortunately there is something special about us. Our existing legal system would prevent effective policing of Schengen.
Personally I would prefer to be in Schengen and accept the downside. I am aware that many of the apparent freedoms are perhaps illusory. Being in Schengen would make little difference to most of the UK travelling public as most of the delays leaving or arriving in the UK have as much to do with security as passport control.
Its only really UK GA pilots that find it a PITA.
I guess that one reason for the UK reluctance to join Schengen is that we would have to modify our personal liberties (down to the same level as the rest of Europe) in order for it to work effectively.
Yes and I doubt that it will ever happen. I think the UK still in general understands the correct definition of liberalism (economic autonomy and personal freedom) and not the fashionable postwar Orwellian ‘1984’ version of the word that so aptly proves that if you use a word in the complete opposite of its actual meaning long enough, eventually the issue will be confused enough to promote political opportunity.
Silvaire wrote:
and not the fashionable postwar Orwellian ‘1984’ version of the word
The most Orwellian thing imaginable to me are CCTV and the UK are world market leader with 5.9 million installed. In many countries (like Germany) they are mostly illegal in public places. To me the most important aspect of liberalism/freedom when individual/government relationships are concerned is privacy. In this field, the UK score very very poorly.
Ted.P wrote:
Unfortunately there is something special about us. Our existing legal system would prevent effective policing of Schengen.
Yes, and we are equally special and we had to give up hundreds of established laws and customs to become EU compatible. One of the fundamental principles of the European Community was that no country is more special than any other. Regarding Schengen, we completely rely on countries like Hungary, Italy, Poland and Greece to protect our borders and we’re still doing OK.
Its only really UK GA pilots that find it a PITA.
And that’s because when you are flying by airline, the whole passenger list is automatically sent to all the various security agencies who cross-ref it against databases of the usual suspects and that happens long before you get on board, never mind before landing. Whereas with GA they don’t get that opportunity. But they don’t get it with sailing, either! So why is sailing so relatively simple? Because the seriously rich do sailing 
The most Orwellian thing imaginable to me are CCTV and the UK are world market leader with 5.9 million installed
CCTV is a deterrent. It is mostly useless – because the recordings are either discarded or aren’t usefully searchable. Sometimes useful stuff is recovered but only if there is something very big at stake. My company’s bank account got ripped off £1500 by somebody with a good copy of my driving license, and when he came back for another £6000 (but walked out when they started asking questions) nobody will look at the CCTV because nobody is interested. The police certainly aren’t. There is zero privacy issue – except for seriously violent criminals.
Yes and I doubt that it will ever happen
Exactly – and too much of a political hot potato.
So, back to the topic
Peter wrote:
And that’s because when you are flying by airline, the whole passenger list is automatically sent to all the various security agencies who cross-ref it against databases of the usual suspects and that happens long before you get on board, never mind before landing. Whereas with GA they don’t get that opportunity.
In no place in the world I had to wait longer in the immigration queue than in the UK. It’s a major PITA and so completely unnecessary. I hear this complaint from many Europeans on their airline trips to the UK. For GA it’s a lot easier, just file the GAR (automatically using autorouter obviously ) and you can go to any place you like.
Even when not joining Schengen, the UK could just say that EU/Schengen citizens can enter without immigration check on their side because if I’m good enough to go to France and you-name-it, wtf do I have to be screened at the UK border?
