Does anybody here have direct knowledge of how to buy it, what the regs are for buying it and storing it, and how much more does it cost than bulk delivered avgas?
I am sitting at Zakyntos right now, having "done" the place pretty well (unlike most of Greece there is very little to see here; it is largely a place to dump large volumes - pun fully intended - of cheap British fish-and-chips tourism, but we will be out of here before all that really gets going) and waiting for the flight back, but it is a good example of an airport with Customs and pretty good opening hours (due to the holiday flights) but no avgas.
Yet some aeroclubs in Greece store their avgas in drums. I know of at least two. This avgas cannot be relied on for visitors however.
If I was living (or even doing an extended stay) on one of these islands I might want to get a few drums delivered.
Presumably if you operate a private strip then nobody can control what you keep in a shed there, but some European countries seem to ban private strips. I don't know about Greece; I know there are some but they are probably below the radar. And you still need to get the stuff delivered with no questions asked. For example one UK oxygen supplier would not deliver a cylinder to my house.
It's a standard fuel. Talk to fuel suppliers and ask them for a quote including transport. I don't know about Greece but in some countries you need to be registered for mineral oil tax. I guess you will end up paying around € 3 per liter. The advantage of AVGAS is that you can store it for at least 12 months, much longer than auto fuels.
But why don't you just get 98 auto fuel?
Hello Peter,
That's Tino from Kos. We shure have met thrice before.
Is your question a general one about Avgas drum purchasing or about how is the situation like in Greece and how we fight our way forward ? The second part of your question can be replied bellow.There are many short fields for ULs around,officialy unspecified and some official ZZZZs with RWS from 400 to 800m.The second link contains that,but its in Greek.In any case,a FPL is requested.
Yes you can have barrels in a location on, off or at the boundary of an airport but the problems are with the logistics.
1) who will store and guard them for you ? You cannot just leave them at an apron, provided we are talking about public airport. Private is OK, there are some in Greece mainly ZZZZ associated with aeroclubs but most of them fly MOGAS aircraft, not AVGAS.
2) who will handle them for you ? CAA allows brining in fuel at the apron but gives all sorts or requirements that an individual cannot handle, especially someone who is not based. Only a fuel company can handle these (required) procedures logistically. handpump with waterlock, fire extinguishers, designated area for refueling, metal canisters if not in barrels, no private cars allowed in apron and the story goes on. Even for a simple MOGAS canister I've heard stories that CAA allowed the refuel to a visitor but any taxi driver was refusing to carry the full canister from nearby gas station with the excuse of fire hazard and actually there is a regulation that forbids them in transporting fuel since they are professional and not private cars. Offcourse the extra cash resolved the problem but this was only for a metal canister with some 20~40 Lt of mogas. Its only worth this cost (as a visitor) when you have no other option.
3) who will the invoice of shipping be issued to ? If its another person than you its his invoice you cannot get a receipt for that. If its you then you must have a base in Greece for invoicing i.e. an address for tax office etc. even if its delivered elsewhere.
Regardless of the logistics these are the prices right now in Greece. 2.80 Euro (incl. VAT) - Athens LGAV is ~3.1 - for AVGAS by fuel bowser at public airport.
If you buy 200Lt barrels from refunery near Athens and transfer them by truck/ship in remote locations the price comes to ~3.5 / Lt.
If you import big quantities e.g. 50~100 barrels from Romania, Bulgaria or other Balkan countries and properly due all import paperwork and pay import taxes it comes down to 1.9~2.1 Euro/Lt delivered in Greece but you must have a logistics operation set up for this which may bring again the cost up.
So the key of the issue is that nobody will ship and/or keep one or two barrels for you unless they already have this operation running for their own reasons.
For aircraft I have not heard much about AVGAS barrels lying around in Greece with the exception of aeroclubs of LGTS and LGMT who cannot re-sell it since its only for their own use.
For helicopters burning AVGAS scattered around the country I can confirm that bulk import of barrels has taken place (with the end price mentioned above) and they store them locally in their yards, warehouses etc. to refuel. Most of these cases though are attached to commercial buildings with already enough of shaded locking space available directly related to the helicopter owners and with people nearby to take care of the "cargo" security & safety.
Regarding Zakynthos: I warned you ;-) At lest you got there before the season really kicks in !
Not an answer to your question Peter, but an observation that might be inspiring:
I'm located at Lelystad EHLE, and fuel prices there are quite high. Next to the airport is a cheap Tank Station (Tango).
I see Cadets of a local Flying School driving there with a fuel bowser behind a van, and filling up the bowser. Apparently they use the fuel to run this:
Many thanks for great replies.
The advantage of AVGAS is that you can store it for at least 12 months, much longer than auto fuels.
I thought avgas 100LL or 91UL can be stored indefinitely, provided the container is totally sealed. If you open the container, then avgas lasts a lot longer than car petrol because its vapour is more or less just avgas so there is very little selective evaporation (which is why avgas is often used for degreasing etc during maintenance).
If you import big quantities e.g. 50~100 barrels from Romania, Bulgaria or other Balkan countries and properly due all import paperwork and pay import taxes it comes down to 1.9~2.1 Euro/Lt delivered in Greece but you must have a logistics operation set up for this which may bring again the cost up.
One would think it would be a viable business proposition to set up a front company which buys the stuff and despatches X drums to a specific location. I suppose that in a lot of places, especially Greece, one would have to fill the plane up covertly, by first transferring it to jerrycans - horrible!
I see Cadets of a local Flying School driving there with a fuel bowser behind a van, and filling up the bowser.
There is absolutely no doubt that one can operate a TB20 (IO540-C4) on car petrol, provided it doesn't contain ethanol, or not much ethanol. 91UL has been legal since 24th April 2013.
But are you sure they are putting it in the TB20?
One tested strategy for car petrol of unknown grade is to use avgas in one wing and the car petrol in the other, and use the car petrol only in cruise, say 65% or below, where there cannot possibly be an issue - so long as your fuel system has no materials (e.g. o-rings) affected by ethanol.
I have no idea whether a TB20 has ethanol-proof materials, but Socata put a limit of 1% or 2% (from memory) on IPA (for fuel anti icing purposes) and that being "alcohol" ought to be similar to ethanol, maybe?
Back to drums, all overflight permit agents are capable of organising avgas drums as that is a common requirement for ferry flights into say Africa. I don't know the current situation, but one used to fly via say Sitia or Rhodos, and then Luxor (which used to have avgas but not any more) and then some barrels were needed in Khartoum. I wonder how these agents do it, given that the barrels are obviously delivered to the airport overtly. They do pay bribes (the default position for everything in the 3rd World) so maybe it is arranged at the same time as the overflight permit, which normally involves a payment to an aviation ministry official.
But are you sure they are putting it in the TB20?
Yes I am. They are using the slightly more expensive Super98.
I'm not saying I advocate this but all the Jodel boys where I am based and there is a few of them have replaced all the O rings etc with ethanol compatible ones. There is some company that is locally based that can make anything you want in an ethanol compatible material for like 4 pence.
O-rings in almost any material cost of the order of €0.20 in small quantities. That is with no traceability documents...
Buy yourself an alcohol tester, not that expensive. Every airfield in Europe offering Mogas owns one to determine the ethanol level after a new shipment. If you happen to get a delivery with > 1% ethanol, you can mix it with another one having less.
I really think the solution to your original question is auto fuel. There is little point in trying to organize. Avgas. I am completely convinced that auto fuel is better for your engine anyway.
