Export is a key word. The reason to stay inside EU is you have something to sell to the rest of the countries. That is also the reason to stay out, only you got to have something to sell that the others cannot compete with. Competing on price is not very lucrative in the long run, then you would be (much) better off staying in, serving a larger “home” market. I have no idea what the UK has to export today. In my head the UK is a place where everybody grows vegetables and sell to each other, plus one and the other bed & breakfast. Then there is a bunch of banks in London that specializes on making money shuffling virtual papers around. Without EU, why should those banks stay in London?
Alexis wrote:
What’s really sad is how many people reduce the idea of the EU to money
The EU division of power issue was well covered in a few decades of US Constitutional debate. Hamilton and Jefferson did this one pretty well 
Going down the current path, history would give the EU a few more years before succession by a southern block and civil war, or maybe succession/Brexit is the 21st century version, already occurring!
Interesting how different people are – but certainly not by nationality. My experience is that we’re very much all the same. The EU was maybe only the first attempt to overcome nationalities. Might take many more centuries …
PS: i find the theories that the EU will end in civil war cynical.
Alexis wrote:
PS: i find the theories that the EU will end in civil war cynical.
I find that those too stubborn and proud to learn from well known and well studied history are already repeating it. I also think the EU needs to learn from its own present day situation, and re-debate the constitutional basis for the EU, boiling it down into a clear, one page unambiguous document that defines and limits the powers of the EU government – which is also what US history would teach them.
Silvaire wrote:
As soon as Italy adopted the Euro that reversed with the product being progressively cheapened to maintain competitive pricing,…
There are always many factors influencing a market. Motorcycle sales went steadily down since the 1990ies (because the younger people are no longer interested – the average age of motorcyle drivers in Germany is now 57 years!) and that also affected the Italian manufacturers. Add to that the fact (I at least call it a fact) that the quality of Italian motorcycles leaves a lot to be desired and the Euro was only the final nail in the coffin, it at all. Audi buying Ducati (which to my knowledge is the only Italian manifacturer bought by a German company) saved them for another few years – but not for much longer because they already look for a buyer…
Silvaire wrote:
…(i.e. VW) offshore production for export sales supplementing domestic production for sales within the tariff protected Euro zone.
VW has been producing cars in Mexico (and Fiat in Brazil) three decades before the Euro was invented. Absolutely no connection here.
BTW: I belong to the first generation (since 1300something) that has not experienced a war between Germany and France (yet). Even if one only wants to look at money, the cost of a war is several orders of magnitude larger than the cost of EU. In that respect, the EU is a real bargain so to say!
@what_next, MV Agusta is part owned by Mercedes Benz as well as Ducati being owned by VW. Surely given your own background you have not forgotten MV/Cagiva? 
I’m not going to debate motorcycles on this website, but the Italians have made the best motorcycles in the world since roughly the 1970s, with a gap in the 80s when the Japanese were dominant and a very strong resurgence in the 90s, propelled by a low cost Lira. Its sad to me to see them suffer since then, under the Euro.
VW makes cars in Mexico, Brazil and many other places, and has much increased production as time has gone on – for good business reasons for sales outside of the Euro zone, where EU tariffs and cultural barriers don’t protect them. The Mexican plant is now their second largest plant worldwide, with a recent $1 billion expansion. Fiat makes cars in Mexico too, most of them sold in the US where they are struggling to reestablish themselves. Renault did it smarter after they failed in the US export market and instead of building Renault badged cars for the US market in their Mexican plants, they instead bought half of Nissan which already had a good reputation in the US.
LeSving wrote:
I’m of the opposite stand. If only EU could concentrate on practical stuff, freedom of movement of people, money, services and goods, then EU would be excellent.
The EU is all this an more. The practical advantages of the EU are huge. Within my lifetime (31 years), transnational borders were reduced from intimidating barriers to mere lines on a map. Roaming charges for mobiles have been completely eliminated. There is but one occasion in the last decade were I had to exchange money abroad (in the UK), while visiting loads of places in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Greece required not a single exchange of money.
The image problem the EU has is that many or most of its advantages are nowadays regarded as so normal that they are not fully appreciated…if at all.
Not everyone cares or even has to care about the political visions accompanying the EU project. But in my eyes the people who complain about the political entity would usually complain about any political entity, and they do, be it local, regional or national. The EU is but one additional layer. For people living in federal countries like Austria or Germany this is nothing new. People living in centralized states such as the UK or France are less used to a layered structure of political power.
what_next wrote:
BTW: I belong to the first generation (since 1300something) that has not experienced a war between Germany and France (yet). Even if one only wants to look at money, the cost of a war is several orders of magnitude larger than the cost of EU. In that respect, the EU is a real bargain so to say!
Silvaire wrote:
MV Agusta is part owned by Mercedes Benz as well as Ducati being owned by VW.
The first one only to 25% and the other one is up for sale. My guess is that it will go for one Euro.
Silvaire wrote:
Surely given your own background you have not forgotten MV/Cagiva?
One must really be careful what one writes on the internet – it never forgets Yes the road I took every day to go to school passed very close by the Castiglioni’s factrories.
But, to put the record straight: The Euro was introduced in 2002. A historical fact. Some of the most well known Italian manufacturers of motorcycles went bankrupt in these years: Cagiva-End 1990ies (and again right now). MV/Agusta: 1980. Ducati: 1983 (for the first time). Moto Guzzi: 2000. Bimota: 2000. Morini: 1996 (bought out by Cagiva). Aprilia: bought out 2004 by Piaggio like several others. Piaggio group only survives because it’s scooters go strong.
So the Euro had nothing to do with the downturn of the Italian motorcycle industry I should say.
And here is a short interview with Giovanni Castiglioni, the current president of Cagiva. He went to the same school as I did (many years after me though) and blames the difficulties of his company on everything but not the Euro. And he never would (like myself), because we were both educated the same way: http://www.cycleworld.com/mv-agusta-giovanni-castiglioni-interview-on-the-record
what_next wrote:
So the Euro had nothing to do with the downturn of the Italian motorcycle industry I should say.
Again, the main Italian manufacturers boomed in the 1990s based on US sales and low dollar cost of production. Starting at the time of the Euro, they started to suffer. Ducati, Aprilia and Cagiva/MV were the major players at the time the Euro was introduced, and were all doing well under the Lira. There is no question that the Euro damaged the profitability of Italian motorcycle manufacturers and continues to do so.
Given that Germany is the biggest market for Italian motorcycles today, and because his company is partially owned by Germans, obviously Giovanni Castiglioni would say exactly nothing negative about the Euro situation!
MedEwok wrote:
The EU brought peace. Over 70 years of peace in Europe
Would you care to revise that statement as it does seem just a tad far fetched!
