Mooney_Driver wrote:
These things happen in restrictive clubs and those are the ones which give the whole scene a imho undeservedly bad name. 28 days is a bit few but I’ve seen it after 90 days
A lot of clubs in France have a 90 day currency requirement. And I am sure it is the case in Norway too. IIRC both clubs at Kjeller (ENKJ) had that requirement when I was a member there.
What is worse is that in some clubs the 90-day requirement applies to each airplane model. So if you have not flown a C172 in the last 90 days, you have to do a training sortie with an instructor on the C172.
LeSving wrote:
Makes me think of the newly adopted policy of the Norway CAA to ban all foreign FTOs as training to get a Norwegian PPL. It was the inspectors who notified the CAA.
By “inspector” you presumably mean “examiner”?
This policy does not apply to training obtained from FTO but from RF (Registered Facilities). In my understanding RF are flying clubs that did not obtain FTO status.
Yes, from my observation, this is truly bad in UK aeroclubs. (As said, most UK aeroclubs are rather “normal” flying schools under the disguise of a “club”, so this might be part of the reason).
These 28 day rules – which I have seen a lot in the UK – are ridiculous. Money-making schemes indeed. Probably this is because otherwise, most UK pilots wouldn’t fly (and create revenue for the “club”) at all. In fact, it seems like most flights in many UK clubs are sheer “currency” flights. How quaint.
Would I be a member of such “typical” club if I were in the UK. Of course not.
But many / most continental clubs are much better in this regard. Usually, there is some 6-months-rule. Sometimes there isn’t even that. The argument that “the club must safeguard its assets” is a Totschlagargument as we say in German, i.e. a knockout-argument. IMHO, the only thing they have to make sure is that pilots are properly licensed.
Gosh, this must be the hundredth thread we’ve had here where we concluded that “it’s particularly bad in the UK”. What is with this country?
LeSving wrote:
It really saddens me to read things like requirements for a checkride after 28 days of not flying, flying with an instructor the first time you visit any other airfieldIt really sounds weird, and can’t imagine that this is a real club. I can imagine it can happen if an instructor runs his own little private “club”, doing instructions and renting out (his own) planes on the side
There might be a fair bit of debate about the need for a 28 day checkride but in my case this, as far as I know, is the only imposition the club makes. I don’t need an instructor to fly to a new airfield, nor to fly overseas … although they will happily provide one if I ask. If my only option was to fly a club hire then I’m stuck with the rules – and I am sure the debate about the need for checkrides will continue!!!
It is decent club in my view. They had me ready for the PPL Skills test in significantly fewer hours than would be normal ‘for a man of my age’ – and that was no mean feat 
Not perfect but friendly, experienced, encouraging and they fitted the bill for this trainee pilot and seemingly for quiet a few others. The club manages five or six syndicate aircraft which are an option for pilots who want to own a share and take advantage of the lower hourly costs. So I think they are doing their bit for advancing GA and presumably making a living too!
Their living will almost certainly depend on high utilisation of their fleet of three aircraft for hire – which is inconsistent with the needs of pilots who want to fly a couple of hours for a day out or a longer leg for a few days away. And, of course, the club’s instructors won’t have any work/income while the aircraft is away with an experienced pilot. IMO, if a (new) pilot wants to expand his/her horizons they need to find a ‘club’ that is not primarily a training organisation. I recognised this fairly early on so as soon as I had my licence went looking for a different aircraft/club/group to help fulfil my expanding ambitions.
To be honest I’m still on that journey and a bit behind where I’d like to be due to the difficulty of finding the right aircraft/club/group in my area. Hopefully, I am now sorted so flying with my wife to the Channel Islands for a few days is on the near horizon and the trip to hook up with family in Scotland next year can become a reality!!
But I’d still have a long way to go and a LOT more money to spend if I was trying to do this in a training club hire!
Peter wrote:
Please also note that it is very common on EuroGA, when someone disagrees with me, to say “this exists only in the UK” In fact in many cases it exists elsewhere also.
EuroGA has participants from most European countries (good work, Peter!) so if you’ve been around here for a while, you’ll have learned quite a bit about how things work in different countries. And you do get the impression that the UK is different in many respects.
Most of the public doesn’t know this but GA in Europe is full of people who really struggle to find the money to fly. So there is a large % of 10-20hr/year pilots… This leads to the monthly currency requirements for renters (“club” or “school” etc is a side issue; IMHO most “clubs” are schools in terms of the money flow since without training income they would not last long).
It is a separate debate whether this currency requirement is justified. Obviously it would depend on the pilot competence versus his/her desired mission profile. A 10hr/year pilot who flies 50nm along a simple inland route to a neighbouring club in the same country on a sunny day, under a unified and relaxed ATC system, is one case. I am not going to give an example route because I will get slammed for criticising the said country – see below. A 10hr/year pilot who wants to fly 200nm from Stapleford UK to La Rochelle, dodging Class A along the way, in OVC015 with PROB30 TEMPO +RA (and with the water i.e. a life raft etc needed, plus the issue which arises if he can’t get back, comes back on Ryanair and the school has to spend well into 3 figures to retrieve the plane*) is quite a different case. Hence I bet you there will be a strong correlation between renter currency requirements and what flying people do 
Syndicates have this issue too but find it harder to enforce because if you alienate the pilot too much, he will try to jump off the ship and put his share up for sale, and then you might be replacing somebody who pays his monthly dues but flies rarely (which is great for the syndicate ) and hopefully keeps his mouth shut at meetings (another bonus), with somebody who pays his monthly dues but flies a lot and thus is much more likely to rock the boat…
Of course Bosco you would not join a club – you have enough money to go it alone, in an SR22 owned solely or with 1 other IIRC. You can pick your passengers to be people you like to fly with, not ones who are primarily able to share costs. I do the same; I fly only with people I like and never ask for a penny towards it (a fish is acceptable ). Most GA pilots don’t have this freedom. The majority of renters I know would not fly at all unless they can cost-share all the way. I know this not just because it is blindingly obvious but also because I ritually ask people (who rent) if they are coming to some EuroGA fly-in and the most common answer is that they can’t find cost-sharing partners. I am sure this is less the case in say Switzerland where the GA scene is visibly packed with people who are relatively ready to stick their hands in their pockets for airfield infrastructure. Germany is probably slightly below that level. The UK is lower still, with a rather impoverished GA scene in many places. Much of the rest of Europe, the south especially, is poorer still, with almost no GA activity.
Why are UK pilots spending less money? It could be this (a thread which didn’t get a great reception on the UK burger run sites ) or it could be they do have less money – IOW there are more pilots in the UK who are trying to hang in there above their financial means. I don’t know. Probably all of the above… Plus the UK’s business rates system makes hangarage less viable and most people will not buy a plane (=will not commit to GA much) unless they can hangar it. It is OK here on EuroGA to criticise the UK (because the mod lives there ) but with any other country it always leads to trouble.
* This is why UK schools, when they do foreign fly-outs, stick an FI into the RHS of each plane going. It ensures nobody gets cold feet on the way back
Aviathor wrote:
By “inspector” you presumably mean “examiner”?This policy does not apply to training obtained from FTO but from RF (Registered Facilities). In my understanding RF are flying clubs that did not obtain FTO status.
Yes, you are absolutely right FTO, ATO, DTO, RF – these acronyms, these acronyms. Same shit, (hardly any) different wrapping
Mark_B wrote:
Indeed. We have a 28 day rule for PPLs with fewer than 100 hours, and this rises to a 90 day rule for others. The need for a checkride for more experienced pilots can be waived by the chief flying instructor on the basis of hours logged.
Similar rules existed for me, based on total hours and the FI’s discretion if the weather was good and the proposed flight was straightforward. It can take a long time to build from, say, 50 hours at the end of your PPL training to 100 hours especially if you have a job that makes high demands on your time. As a result of the check flights I didn’t have to worry about ‘training’ hours in my log book to cover my Revalidation – although I chose to do a full hour anyway!
I was told of one club member who would fly a single circuit every four weeks to avoid having to take the check flight!! If you can get airborne pretty quick that might make a bit of sense!!
Anyone who thinks currency rules for renting aircraft aren’t required has obviously never had to experience the standard of some PPLs I have had to ‘refresh’ during these flights!
Speaking as a CFI, there is definitely a balance to be struck between letting pilots ‘off the leash’ a bit and keeping control / availability of assets. Yes I try to encourage fly outs and touring, but there is a reality that I need aircraft availability to keep the (intensive) training programme flowing and I simply can’t afford for aircraft to sit on the ground somewhere else, or worse get stuck. Two months ago a renter wrote off one of my training assets on a landaway and that has cost me months of training hours and revenue. For some clubs that could be financial game over.
