Greek TMA classification mayhem

TMAs in Greece are class E with R/T requirement, hence they are RMZs as well.

Also, some of them (the ones with radar control – ATHINAI TMA, MAKEDONIA TMA , IRAKLION TMA ,KERKIRA TMA and RODOS TMA) are TMZs as well.

I suppose (my meaning) the reason that the CAA has written instructions/clearances in some places when talking about a TMA is that CTRs can also be found in TMAs, and CTRs are class D, needing a clearance.

When flying over Greek territory one must fly within the lateral limits of controlled airspace. So, eg, an airway (class E) or a TMA (class E+) are controlled airspaces from an altitude and upwards. If you fly over Greek territory within their lateral limits (eg below them) you are in another class (eg G) and you can fly there. Also, outside Greek territory and outside controlled airspace, you can fly wherever you like (G). If you manage to create a difference polygon (Greek territory minus controlled airspace (airway buffers, TMAs etc)) you’ll see that it is “difficult” to fly over Greek territory and not be within the lateral limits of controlled airspace. I agree that there is no official public map that shows these, but I will not comment on this specific requirement as IMO it is a little off-topic.

Another general point. Airspace classification is mainly based on the level of ATS you’ll get. This does not preclude the establishment of uncontrolled ATS routes with certain requirements (even mandatory), of course never aiming to override the fundamental SERA VMC minima.

atmilatos wrote:

you’ll see that it is “difficult” to fly over Greek territory and not be within the lateral limits of controlled airspace.

Example of these areas in a snapshot of central Aegean.
These are the areas that theoretically you cannot fly VFR (Within territory i.e. not High Seas and outside CAS lateral limits).
If you fly VFR via airways you never pass through these odd little areas and even if you do its for a few minutes or so.
Noone (ATC/FIS) has them charted anyway like in the below graphic.

Map source: www.aopa.gr/aerogis

What’s the rationale behind this bizarre VFR restriction?

The previous snapshot was based on 12nm Territorial Waters.
The below is based on 10nm National Airspace.

achimha wrote:

What’s the rationale behind this bizarre VFR restriction?

Part of it comes from the Aegean Dispute.
Its worth a read, if you have the time, to understand how complicated the issue is.

We (civil GA aircraft) are not the only ones flying VFR in the Aegean and I believe this restriction was not made for us but still affects us as VFR.

As I mentioned it is extremely rare as light GA to get affected by it in practice.

As far as I have heard this bizarre restriction is based on some facts like:
- Outside the brown boundaries in above image the aircraft is over international waters (High Seas), outside National Airspace, but still within Greece’s FIR (as far as SAR obligations go).
- Inside the brown boundaries the aircraft is inside National Airspace and Greece Territorial waters, i.e. no VFR without Flight Plan (and positively identified) can fly there and national authorities including the Air Force have different rights over imposing actions in these areas.
- If you are inside Territorial waters but outside CAS lateral limits (the red polygons) something of legal form happens there that is not desirable by the national authrorities.
In the red polygons military aircraft that are not approved are not allowed to fly through. I believe this rule is aimed towards specific military aircraft flying VFR.
As the Wiki page writes only military/state aircraft need prior permission for national airspace entry. So it looks like its not for us civil guys.

For IFR flights with IFR flight plans there is more control (by ATC) over what happens, what is approved, and what not.
For VFR flights, of foreign military aircraft, especially without filed flight plans, the issue is much more complicated and I believe this bizarre VFR restriction derives from their presence.

Every single aircraft flying inside a country’s FIR, be it airliner or not, IFR or VFR, slow or fast, like in most countries, is constantly monitored and positively identified by the Air Force with their independent set of radar network.

So I think the issue isrelated to the difference between violations of the national airspace and transgressions of air traffic regulations referred to in the above Wiki article.

I have talked with various friend airport tower ATC/FIS and they have told me that even for light/slow VFR traffic they get the occasional landline call from a specific “coordination center” with queries for positive identification of even low & slow flying targets squawking 7000 (or even primary targets only) off the coast that have not been positively identified. Its a constant parallel operation going on of which most of us are not aware of.

No worries Dimme.

Just a remark. As I said, class G in Greece is not only the area below the TMAs, but under the airway system as well. The latter is in itself pretty large, eg in the Aegean.

I’m sure your new maps will shed more light on this.

Generally the current system is not flawless (reasons being mainly political but outside the scope of the thread – you should have stayed more at that small island lol) and I believe as time passes it will be more streamlined.