Silvaire wrote:
Yes, I think this is an object lesson in how a completely wacko over complicated non-system for even modest GA missions results in an intelligent person screwing up. He may or may not be the most practical or proficient ATP rated university professor, that’s not clear to me, but transport infrastructure including that for flights across Europe needs to work well with 17 year old kids…
Sorry no.
If I as an European pilot go to fly in the USA, I need to familiarize myself with what is different there from what I know here. And there is quite a lot which is massively different. If i screw up, the FAA will rightly come after me and will question my ability to plan a flight in accordance to the American rules. If I do this because I could not be bothered to find out how things work in the US, they would rightly pull my validation and send me packing, if not fine me for my stupidity.
I don’t see why this pilot should be treated differently. He was clearly clueless about flying to where he wanted to fly. He had no idea about customs and immigration requirements, he had no idea about the IFPS system which is vital to fly IFR in Europe, he had no idea about the fact that Avgas is not available in most places in Greece, I do question the legality of flying a plane of this type IFR in Europe, so all in all he had not done anything to inform himself about the countries he was flying to and crossing in and out of.
Silvaire wrote:
Again, this 700 nm flight should be supported by a system that a 17 year old newly licensed pilot can use without any trouble, with the system helping, not threatening to jail him!
A newly licensed pilot who informs himself can do this flight yes. Most pilots I know here know how to do a fuel calculation and how to use an AIP. This guy did not.
Silvaire wrote:
What I’m talking about is flying a simple 700 nm flight within one day without days of anal preplanning, without a pointless flight plan, and without much in the way of en route radio work… because it also adds no value.
I am not aware that you can fly in the US without preparation either. Otherwise, why would we have TFR violations and other such niceties all the time and last time I looked, this is not a thing the FAA takes lightly. This guy got away with much worse stuff than this. Or do you think you can fly from Mexico into the US and land on a USAF base due to lousy fuel planning without a clearance and have no consequences from the TSA and the Immigration department, let alone Customs?
Mooney_Driver wrote:
He had no idea about customs and immigration requirements, he had no idea about the IFPS system which is vital to fly IFR in Europe, he had no idea about the fact that Avgas is not available in most places in Greece, I do question the legality of flying a plane of this type IFR in Europe
Repeating myself, those are four issues that shouldn’t exist. There are obviously a great many more. We know they do exist, and we know that the pilot needs to address them. That’s the problem.
Reflecting on those items in relation to my flying: Integrated Flight Planning System, eh? I haven’t filed a flight plan since 2003 
Nobody driving a car files a drive plan either. I buy gas at any airport, mostly without talking to anybody. You can’t fly IFR in a modern well equipped aircraft? Why not? The whole thing is just silly.
I think what this guy tried to do in Europe would equally not have worked anywhere else in the world – except within the mainland US which presumably he was familiar with, if not perhaps (as most instructors everywhere) going anywhere too far.
Most parts of the world are harder than Europe in that you need overflight permits – these are invariably arranged for a fee by specialist overflight agents. Virtually all the people who fly to say Africa use these – even if their trip writeups don’t mention it.
In some parts of Europe, like the Balkans and Greece, you don’t need overflight permits but you do need to check out the airport facilities before you go there.
One could start with the article I posted and comment on it line by line. Most of it would not look good.
Does the aircraft have an ICAO CofA? If not, that is another dimension…
I agree that Eurocontrol have screwed up the IFR system in Europe pretty well, but
) and nowadays it is easy enough to useThe thing which caused Eurocontrol to dig a hole for themselves (in GA – airlines have always solved the problem with the massive application of ground resources) was their covert protection arrangement for certain jet flight services companies; this operated for many years and prevented autorouting being made available to the “great unwashed” – until the first tools came out in 2008 and forced their hand. But, hey, that was 10 years ago! How long does a pilot have to live in Germany and not discover this?
It would be interesting to understand what fuel plan most people use. Apart from the USA vs Europe aspects the pilot may not have used wind aloft to calculate estimated enroute time?
Typical elements for IFR would be: taxi fuel, climb adjustment (either use AFM climb planning tables or add 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 USG per 1,000 feet as a rule of thumb – based on HP, multi or single), EET (adjusted for winds aloft)(most SOP use block speed and fuel consumption, based on a conservative estimate), contingency (10% which should cover vectors from ATC), final approach and circuit, alternate diversion (usually using block speed/consumption, plus winds aloft) and 45 minute hold (again block speed and consumption). Turbine planning would be more sophisticated (holding power, economic cruise power settings, and much more temperature and FL dependent).
The fuel log would then have fuel required at each waypoint and should give an early warning that fuel is critical, or the fuel plan is not working out from an engine/fuel system perspective (higher than planned consumption than block). The fuel computer on a turbine will not be happy until you are established in the cruise at planned FL, hence the need for some pencil and paper.
A conservative approach does mean that IFR range is usually quite modest relative to what can be found in the AFM/POH. Elements of conservatism would be block planning (the 90HP Super Cub chugs along at 18 or 19 litres per hour and 80KTAS, but I use 20 lph and 78KTAS), contingency (5%, 10%?), final circuit – all adding some belt and braces. Obviously the 90HP SC is not IFR (and the Super Cub as a type may not be IFR certified), but elements of IFR fuel plan can be used in VFR.
The pilot did seem to have very optimistic IFR fuel plans.
The Warrior POH claims a no reserve range of 600nm plus at 75%, but a no wind, IFR plan with a modest 60nm diversion suggests IFR range with full tanks is around 340nm.
Indeed, in Europe, a “500nm to empty tanks” plane is good for only half of that – unless you are flying along a line of airports which all have avgas and the wx is cavok
Silvaire wrote:
What I’m talking about is flying a simple 700 nm flight within one day without days of anal preplanning, without a pointless flight plan, and without much in the way of en route radio work…
I think you’re making some false equivalences. It’s easy to think of “Europe” as a single entity, but it’s not, it’s a collection of sovereign states often with differing customs requirements when you go out of Schengen. This particular flight would be (distance aside) more the equivalent of flying from the USA to Colombia, as the flight went out of Schengen for a bit. People do spend a bit of time doing “anal preplanning” when flying from the USA to Mexico, and even USA to Canada and back.
Remember, Europe isn’t the United States of Europe but a collection of independent, sovereign states (some more than others) with slightly differing systems despite ICAO and the EU. Many in Europe resist strongly the idea of a United States of Europe with a federal European government – it’s not about elites (and if anything, EASA is promoting simpler, more proportionate systems for GA – it’s the sovereign states themselves which are the actual boogeymen in terms of GA and has little to do with EU or Europe geographically).
Unfortunately Americans often think of “Europe” as being like the U.S.E as it’s what they are familiar with the U.S.A, a system of states with a federal government, and this results in a lot of confusion. It doesn’t help that the press in countries like the UK like to paint the EU as some group of all-powerful overlords, when the 8.33 spacing debacle shows that they are not (the need to change our radios was because the individual sovereign states of Europe didn’t want to give up their responsibility of allocating airband frequencies to a European authority, and EASA sn’t powerful enough to force the issue, it seems).
You also need to recall that in the United States, you have the extremely highly privileged position of your borders not having changed in living memory, nor any invasions of the US mainland in living memory. The Balkans on the other hand were aflame with an extremely bitter war just two decades ago (from 1991 to 2001) that brutalised a good part of the population, and borders in the Balkans have shifted considerably, and people still of working age (i.e. the politicians and bureacrats in charge of Balkan and Eastern European countries) were under the jackboot of the Soviet Union well into their young adult years. There will still be plenty of suspicion and paranoia festering in the Balkans, so it should not come as a surprise if there are customs and immigration rules that need to be followed. Especially since there are some Balkan states that believe other Balkan states shouldn’t exist.
I was reading through this very interesting thread earlier and a couple of points occurred to me.
It seems to me Silvaire is taking one side of the discussion, and most everyone else the other.
I have a lot of symphathy for Silvaire’s point of view, but I was wanting to analyse why.
For those that have flown in Europe and America I think it is easy to think it is much easier in America. Having flown in the States quite a lot this year I know that is my immediate reaction. However, on analysis, part of the reason I find is just a feely thing if that makes sense. What I mean is the whole experience is just better. To be fair to the States they just do GA well. What do I mean? Well the dots are joined up. Essentially all the airports have Avgas, almost no where is unwelcoming, or for that matter either closed to GA, or prices GA out the market, they all offer good services, and on the whole they think you are mad when you ask questions like “when do you close, can I get Avgas at lunch time, do I need to PPR”, etc.The same applies to AT, on the whole nothing is a problem, nothing too much trouble and again, on the whole, it all joins up. Of course Europe is the complete opposite (I understand for some good reasons and some not so good). However, it is fair to say you would go almost nowhere without checking opening and closing times, whether they have fuel, how you can pay for the fuel, whether the resteraunt is open, when the airport is open, if you require PPR, etc., etc., the list is very long. Of course, you should know that, but equally, you might be surprised at the extend of the issues if you had never encountered them before. The same is true for any route with which you are not familiar, especially VFR. I think it is fair to say the airspace through most of Europe is a mess, and everyone has their own ideas how it should be run. Finally, even IFR, to say you can predict with any certainty the route, would be an amazing leap of faith.
It is not even that different from driving a car. I think if you were an American (and by the way I am not) and never driven in Europe, you would think I can drive a car, why do I need to brief myself on how they drive cars in Europe. However, possibly a briefing would not do you any harm, because most Americans find it very strange the way we go about things. Equally, if you are English, I challenge many people to drive a car in Cairo.
On the whole while there are many things about America I dont like, it is still the land of the free, the land of not making anythng complicated if you can avoid doing so, and anything commercial recognising that they are providing the customer with a service, not you doing them a favour (even if it isnt always with sincerity).
Consequently, in a touchy feely sort of way the US just does GA so much better BUT of course equally the basic flying, the common sense need to know and understand the regulations and what to expect and not, does not change. I did some flying also in Oz this year, and it is more like the US. You could jump in an aircraft, and as long as you half know what you are doing going from A to B with very little hassle and very little unexpected – but in the same way as the US, on the whole their is miles of open space, one regulator, one set of rules, and a pretty GA friendly attitude to all.
I think, but could be wrong, that is at the spirit of this article and Silvaire’s view point. In a similar way if you take Flying, the America GA mag. one of their regulor contributors who is a very expereinced GA and commercial pilot and also clearly a very intelligent gentleman (cancer surgeon) writes this month a botu a tour around Europe in a persoanl light jet. His article follows a very similiar course, and leaves you feeling what the hell are we doing making everything so awkward!
@Fuji_Abound, yes, it is exactly my view point.
@alioth, I’ve spent a great deal of time traveling in most areas of Europe, inside and outside of the EU, so I’m pretty familiar with the area both geographically and culturally. I was born in Europe and hold citizenship, my wife has lived 90% of her life in Germany and for a while before that I was in a relationship with a diplomat for one of the Balkan states (she’s now an ambassador). It’s not the United States of Europe but yet in most of it (the Schengen Zone) you can travel freely on the ground without much in the way of national border issues. I fail to see why that doesn’t apply to light aircraft. It’s just dumb.
The loose analogy of the Balkans to Mexico is a quite reasonable one though. In the closest border town to me in Mexico there were 1700 murders in one year not long ago, a rate 50 times higher than in the US side, and cross border crime and smuggling is a huge issue with justified suspicion. So despite the US/Mexican border being perhaps the most crossed in the world legally (one of the border crossings has 18 lanes each way for cars and the border airports used by light aircraft have full time customs for a reason) it wouldn’t be appropriate for light planes to cross without flight plans or ATC – unlike flying within the US or as it should be at least within the Schengen Zone.
