It’s really good to have some ATCOs on here, to put across their view. It’s very valuable to hear things from a different perspective.
Yes indeed. That does help us understanding the system.
The PPL/IR magazine had a very good article about Basel APP a few issues back, which provided explanations to various practices that IFR flying in that area are subject to. I’ve read a few similar articles on AvWeb way back, about the constraints that controllers were working under. I would personally be very interested in getting a better understanding of traffic flows and contraints that apply to GA pilots in the Paris area, and particularly ARR/DEP to/from LFPT 
AIP or regulations are public. We can discuss it, there is nothing to hide.
We, obviously, can’t disclose anything related to an incident / accident or ongoing project.
It’s really good to have some ATCOs on here, to put across their view. It’s very valuable to hear things from a different perspective.
In the UK this rarely happens (virtually never from IFR controllers) because the system is so politicised. Plus AFAIK all NATS controllers have to sign the Official Secrets Act. I sometimes hear something interesting from an IFR controller in the UK but I very carefully check which bit is OK to disclose.
You wouldn’t by any chance work at Lognes, would you?
For a flight from LFPT to central France I had filed PTV as my first en-route waypoint, and got a departure clearance from R05 with a left turn for radar vectors to PTV which would normally take me overhead Orly then PTV. As expected. Shortly after takeoff I get a call from TWR asking me to continue my climb straight ahead and ready to copy clearance. I ended up being vectored to the North of de Gaulle, all the way around Paris, and I never understood why…
This is the normal routing when CDG is facing east and Orly facing west. It’s a rare configuration but it happens…
The other day for an IFR training flight i was supposed to do ELLX – LFJL and return. These are very close and it is known and documented that ELLX will vector you. LFJL is a rather quiet airport.
But still the CFMU will not accept anything without a STAR so the routing end up being totally stupid. My instructor confirmed that I will probably get a DCT MTZ quite quickly after takeoff, and that is also prohibited by the CFMU (LFEE max DCT is 0 NM). So i don’t really see the point of these…
@PapaPapa, welcome to the wonderful world of IFR. You had to file a northerly departure in order to fly south. Sometimes we just need to accept things that appear stupid to us only to keep the CFMU happy, although we know that we will in practice get a much more convenient route. The biggest problem it causes is probably that we need to carry more fuel than we would need had we been able to fly direct, thereby reducing the useful payload.
For a flight from LFPT to central France I had filed PTV as my first en-route waypoint, and got a departure clearance from R05 with a left turn for radar vectors to PTV which would normally take me overhead Orly then PTV. As expected. Shortly after takeoff I get a call from TWR asking me to continue my climb straight ahead and ready to copy clearance. I ended up being vectored to the North of de Gaulle, all the way around Paris, and I never understood why…
while they can’t impose a clearance on you, you can mutually agree to something that is very like a clearance. You are then just as obligated to maintain that clearance as you otherwise would be.
Do you have a reference for that?
I know about the UK ATC position that there is a “contract” between ATC and the pilot, but I don’t believe that has any legal meaning in the sense of contract law… obviously you should tell ATC what you are up to, but that’s just politeness and safety.
A clearance to do something in Class G is especially meaningless because there can be no such thing.
Not quite – while they can’t impose a clearance on you, you can mutually agree to something that is very like a clearance. You are then just as obligated to maintain that clearance as you otherwise would be.
Of course, my point was that you have much less than you think, and OCAS you have exactly nothing.
One could say this is all just semantics but if you ask what exact clearance you have at any time, I think it’s important to realise what you really have.
I think we can all agree on that!
