The community has been quite nice so far
And it will remain so 
I still would, at some point in time, like to do it VFR, in a TMG or something (flying inside the Alps, not over them, France, Germany, UK). That would be fun.
Indeed – come to one of our fly-ins. We do the two main ones each year, plus various little ones get sort-of organised in between.
CharlieRomeo wrote:
From the impression I got while browsing the forums, I seem to be at the rather “low-end”, compared to the average poster.
Hello CharlieRomeo! I’m even “lower end” than you: I’m still in PPL training (30h of 45h at the moment), also in Northern Germany (EDWF) and I also learn to fly on an Aquila. Yet I don’t refrain from joining discussions with the experienced pilots here and neither should you whenever you think you can share something or ask questions. The community has been quite nice so far
JasonC wrote:
You act like the two are mutually exclusive. They aren’t.
I can see that, but that was not my intention. We (most of us here) have limited time and budget to do this hobby. We have to make choices and focus on a few things rather than all and everything. I (and I know most other GA private recreational GA pilots) would not focus on learning IR, because the only thing that can be used for is to go from A to B, on autopilot preferably. I have flown our club’s G1000 on autopilot doing “IFR” flying (VFR on instruments) from A to B and C and… I concluded that this is not the sort of thing I’m willing to pay big money to do. As a job it would be OK I guess.
On Sunday I spent the whole day towing gliders. I was tired coming home at 11 in the evening, but what a blast, what a community, the people, what fun maneuvering myself and the glider to get up between the clouds and mountains. Didn’t pay a penny either. Unpaid job perhaps, but great fun, and at the end of each tow I can decide if I want to nail a super short field landing using less than 100 m of the strip, or if I want to do some other unorthodox landing while diving as fast as possible. It was too much clouds for the skydivers on Sunday, but when they are there, and things stack up right fro time to time, we sometimes fly formation with the skydiving plane on the way down, just for the fun of it. The weather at ENVA was way below VFR, so I couldn’t fly through the mountains to ENOP, and that situation is not uncommon. This means, if I had IFR rating (and a capable IFR plane), I probably would fly each time. But at what cost? How much time and money would I have to put on the table to make it happen?
IFR rating: €15k at least, 100? hours of training
A capable IFR aircraft with de-icing (the season for gliders are from end of February to start of December): €1M
Yearly maintenance cost etc: €10k
It’s just too expensive. I would never do it. If I had the money, I certainly don’t have the urge anyway. I would much rather get PPLH + a helicopter, pay less and be more certain of actually getting there each time flying VFR. With a helicopter I can just put it down anywhere on the way, and wait until the fog or the snow clears up. A helicopter is not the right thing for touring around Europe I guess, but I have no urge to tour around Europe (on Autopilot flying IFR) in any case. I still would, at some point in time, like to do it VFR, in a TMG or something (flying inside the Alps, not over them, France, Germany, UK). That would be fun.
Wow, I’m overwhelmed by the development of this thread. I spent my weekend at the field (where else? ;)), so I didn’t notice until right now.
What I did not want to imply was the club discouraging VFR touring. In fact, the opposite is true. We have a very generous policy on overnight trips,combined with a decent aircraft availability. For example, last October I was able to take the our second Aquila to Denmark for a weekend.
Another club member wants to progress to the commercial licenses and planned to tick the 300-NM-VFR-cross-country-box before signing up for a course at a commercial school. Since we enjoy flying together, having a similar attitude and compatible planning/decision making style, he asked me whether I would like to come along.
An additional big plus was the two of us being light enough to allow for full fuel plus light camping gear in the Aquila.
So we worked out two 300-NM-routes through northern Germany and Denmark,with an overnight stay at Endelave (EKEL), so each of us could fly a different route on two consecutive days. We both really, really enjoyed that trip and found Denmark to be a very nice and welcoming country. Greetings to the Danes on this forum!
Of course the weather wasn’t behaving as it should have, and we had to re-plan and divert (twice actually, on the way back), and both of us could log a +300NM-flight. I don’t “need” it right now, but you never know…
The flight was great fun overall, and made me want more of this. So that’s what I plan to do this year, weather/time/money/etc. permitting ;)
Some fun old threads: here and here and many others
There is a lot of variation in the way schools are run. I suspect those who are the most “difficult” about allowing experienced PPL holders to be around are the ones facing the biggest competitive pressure. It’s a standard sort of social behaviour… when a community is under pressure there is a lot of bickering and in-fighting. One can afford to be magnanimous when one is making money
RobertL18C wrote:
at Stapleford there is quite a strong social post PPL community who avail themselves of the monthly fly outs
I’m wishing I lived closer to Stapleford!!
…at Stapleford there is quite a strong social post PPL community who avail themselves of the monthly fly outs (winter excepted), I believe this is also the case at Andrewsfield.
Most PPL instructors would love the opportunity to do something different, and most established ATOs/flying club will have a sensible policy on this.
In terms of renting for a few days, this also takes place through prior arrangement. One PPL wanted to stretch his wings and went with an instructor to Greece and back – he enjoyed himself so much, he then suggested going to New York!
The Senecas have also been known to go as far afield as Ibiza and Berlin with a club member on a touring jolly. Both were IR rated.
The PPLs going onto CPLs need hour building and its not unheard of for a Stapleford 152 to be found in deepest Scotland France or Ireland.
Mark_B wrote:
At our flying club we have a series of club fly outs of progressive difficulty to encourage people to use their license and go further afield.Perhaps you could ask if there is anything similar at your flying club?
Actually, that’s a fair point. The club I learned with similarly has a series of fly-outs in the year. They are mostly 2 or 3 day weekend or bank holiday events which might be good flying experience but the extra day or two of sightseeing is not up my street unless my wife is with me. And giving up an entire bank holiday weekend for a couple of hours PIC and a tourist trip to somewhere that I probably wouldn’t go to out of choice is not going to impress my wife. Nor happen often enough to make a significant difference to the number of hours I fly.
If, post PPL the club had suggested I and another new pilot get in the Archer with an instructor (for guidance) and each of us plans and flies a 200+nm leg PIC I’d have jumped at it, a few times! We’d have paid half each, including the instructor, and everyone would have been a winner. But I didn’t think about it at the time – and neither did the club.
Better now that I buddy up with an experienced pilot for a day and we each fly a leg that stretches me a bit and gives him a bit of fun! I know a couple of pilots that will do that …. and I’m looking forward to it!
Peter wrote:
The problem with the PPL training machine is that it doesn’t generally prepare one for going anywhere. There is no business incentive for it, for a start. And since most people give up early, why should they? They don’t want to turn a €10k PPL into a €20k PPL.
For a school associated with a club, there is certainly a business incentive. But you’re right about the cost.
At our flying club we have a series of club fly outs of progressive difficulty to encourage people to use their license and go further afield. We have planning evenings, a briefing before each fly out, and then we try to pair up experienced with less experienced pilots. We also encourage participation of students. We have been running this program for three or four years now, and it has proved extremely popular. We have also decided to open it up to pilots from other clubs wishing to join us, though, where possible, we would ask them to attend the briefing sessions! Perhaps you could ask if there is anything similar at your flying club?
