Not angry, just trying to do a good job here.
As one of the main guilty parties to going off topic I apologise profusely, especially to @Peter for making his job difficult.
My only defence is old age.
To return on topic, I thought @Snoopy’s last posts says it all. The problem is we may never know what really happened or what went through the mind of that pilot.
But IMO we can or should put the legal side, aside. It wasn’t a law either obeying or disobeying that caused this accident. I could reference another accident, heavily discussed on this forum, where SERA/NCO had nothing to do with the accident.
In my experience cameras when not zoomed in to their full extent, usually portray a picture of better visibility than will be seen by the mark1 eyeball. It is also my experience that web cams are usually fixed focus and on the tend more to the wide angle.
With that in mind I would expect the visibility at the time of take off to have been much worse than the web cam image in one of the initial posts on this thread.
We know, as fact what the terrain in this area is like, we also have sound information on how the aircraft was equipped and thanks to others on this forum, how the aircraft should perform.
We also seem to have, on good authority, the qualifications of the pilot, although are we missing the number of flights he has undertaken on that particular aircraft. We also have the route this aircraft took after take off and to the crash site, although some have challenged its accuracy.
Possibly everything else is at the moment pure conjecture. But in the spirit of a GA forum and outside of any legal dictates we should be able to learn or remind ourselves of something.That is that as PICs and outside of catastrophic technical we make the ultimate decisions about the safety of ourselves, others and the aircraft.
And that means firstly, asking yourself would you have taken off in those conditions and if so have you thought through all the threats and errors that might ensue and how you would manage them.
VFR min vis in G (for take off at LOIH) = 1500m and clear of clouds.Once airborne and in line with SERA min alt, IFR possible.
That will be my understanding in Austria and how I would have done it, question: how high one need to climb to get Wein FIS/Info or nearby ATC on radio/radar? any easy way to get this info?
I usually can’t talk to FIS/ATC at my IFR MSA, except when doing uncontrolled departures under TMA, this happens when departing from isolated VFR airfields with similar controlled airspace above in 14kft and no other IFR ATSU nearby
You rarely get radio reception at IFR MSA unless you depart under some TMA…
You can enter clouds in Golf at any height & speed without “enroute IFR clearance” even in Austria as long as you are properly rated and trained (we are talking IR pilots in EuroGA not the ULM FB group), the only risk is lost comms, you can’t fly to destination, join airspace…but anyone who flies off-airways IFR would know one thing or two about how to sort that situation, if not I suggest remain VMC untill you have clearance, that happens above MEA/MVA/CAS and has nothing do with 500ft ceilings or ceilinv above MSA, you need way more than that for things to work “perfectly”…
That will be my understanding in Austria and how I would have done it, question: how high one need to climb to get Wein FIS/Info or nearby ATC on radio/radar? any easy way to get this info? I usually can’t talk to FIS/ATC at my IFR MSA, except when doing uncontrolled departures under TMA, this happens when departing from isolated VFR airfields with similar controlled airspace above in 14kft and no other IFR ATSU nearby. You rarely get radio reception at IFR MSA unless you depart under some TMA…
IFR in G = COM equipment mandatory but two way radio contact not required.
Minimum levels
Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except when specifically authorised by the competent authority, an IFR flight shall be flown at a level which is not below the minimum flight altitude established by the State whose territory is overflown, or, where no such minimum flight altitude has been established: (1) over high terrain or in mountainous areas, at a level which is at least 600 m (2 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft; (2) elsewhere than as specified in (1), at a level which is at least 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft.
I guess if VIS was >1500m, a take off at LOIH and subsequently flying IFR in IMC would have been legal according to EU NCO / SERA regulations?!
I guess if VIS was >1500m, a take off at LOIH and subsequently flying IFR in IMC would have been legal according to EU NCO / SERA regulations?!
Yes that would be legal to takeoff but it’s not practical if you are stuck with lost comms or you need clearance into airspace or if you have planned a return (I don’t think VFR return and flying visual circuit in those conditions would have been legal though, also we can debate for other 10 pages if an IFR return using own IFR procedure is legal but I personally don’t see how resulting MDH can be lower than 350ft and the required approach visibility will be North of +2km, no matter how smart & skilled the poor guy)
Can you depart/arrive on uncontrolled straight-in in Austria, specifically LOIH? or there are some rules regarding mandatory 2000ft overhead joins or 1000ft downwind circuit joins?
loih has no ifr clearance/procedure.in some 40 years i do not know of approved or regular ifr traffic at loih.
Are you required to get NAA approval for IFR in Golf in Austria?
If you are lazy to read what have been said about SERA/NCO, at least you can read what Austrian AIP says, if you are IR rated & equipped (like most people who are regular and have posted here), you file Z-FPL from LOIH, depart LOIH VFR with 1.5km visibility (without clearance), then enter clouds at 0.1ft (without clearance), climb IFR toward your MSA outside controlled airspace (without clearance), when you get tired of IFR OCAS (without clearance), go and ask FIS/ATC for clearance to enter controlled airspace IFR on your Z-FPL, voilà !
If you lose comms before getting a clearance, and can’t sort your own mess (in a nutshell you need VMC at MSA in Golf somewhere or have a PhD in IAP design) and decide to play it safe by heading to LOWW and fly their ILS, well you will be having a bad day and likely get called for an interview at CAA & ATC HQ…
Is that not mixing up 1500m for VFR (i.e. a non IR holder) with the fact that an IR holder is entitled to IR privileges all the way from the surface?
My understanding, you need an IR and I-FPL to be entitled to go lower toward 400m RVR at the surface on takeoff, if you are departing on Z-FPL or no FPL, you will need > 1.5km, for IR holder at surface for PPL holder all the way above
Anyway a takeoff with 1.5km visibility in Golf during the day is legal for an ICAO IR holder anywhere in SERA land (with one or two exceptions) as long as they are not clocking 140kias
Most likely; AFAIK only one country I know of has that bizzare circling requirement which is/was highly ambiguous anyway, and applies to arrivals, not departures.
Some airports have mandatory 2000ft overhead joins, or at least what I was told by AFIS or FISO when arriving at Elstree EGTR with 800ft ceiling, I did it the OHJ then long final…
there are some strong indications that visiblity was below 1500m
I tend to agree but let’s wait for proper investigation (it’s the only sherif in town as far as the legality of the flight assuming the pilot was IR rated & equipped, which is apparently the case)
If the trigger was an emergency, it is a sad reminder that there are not much return options for SEP departing in low IMC (other than an ugly straight ahead) and no room for improvisation
When you look at moving map on takeoff it’s completely red then becomes yellow and finally (hopefully) green in direction of your flight
Not different that visual departures, either you have the required climb for the flight path or not, pulling & twisting the stick does not do much help when it comes to clear obstacles in pistons after takeoff
The only difference is left/right choices are rather obvious, which probably helped in this case if it was full red on one side of the screen but usually the choice of turn left/right and height cutoff is decided before takeoff, usually by nominating a heading (it’s easy to confuse left/right on moving maps, display configs, reverse course, runways…even ATC makes the mistake before correcting it a second after you start turning)
Today I flew past this at ~900ft and got the warning from my Aera 660 – which I would argue was spurious
It also depends how far you are from departure A aerodromes & arrival B aerodrome in your FPL? you should get it in cruise but usually there are a “no warning zone” near your A & B for climb/descent but I don’t recall the exact lateral sizes…
If no FPL in loaded, you should get some warnings but it get’s confusing
I would love if Garmin/SkyDemon can create some 2deg slopes and surfaces to cover during climb/descent bits rather than checking for obstacles within vertical/lateral square boxes during cruise only
you are right of course and i agree to be as carefull as possible with facts and assumptions.
on the other hand we are not at court here :—)))).there might be some friendly and positiv space
and tollerance for errors and mishapps.
as long….and again you are right….there is some meaning in learning and understanding together.
could you please take a short look at my posting 10:24
and tell me wether the hypothesis that he did a right hand turn on autopilot/ifr
going out 05 (because earlier programmed for 23 and by some error not corrected)
could be theoretically possible. he thought possibly he had reprogrammed for 05.
and in these conditions he did not notice the error until too late.
