here comes the austrian law:
Bundesrecht konsolidiert: Gesamte Rechtsvorschrift für Zivilflugplatz-Verordnung, Fassung vom 15.11.2021
Langtitel
Verordnung des Bundesministers für Verkehr vom 1. Juli 1972 betreffend Zivilflugplätze (Zivilflugplatz-Verordnung – ZFV 1972)
StF: BGBl. Nr. 313/1972
Präambel/Promulgationsklausel
Auf Grund der §§ 58, 66, 68, 71, 78 und 79 des Luftfahrtgesetzes, BGBl. Nr. 253/1957, wird verordnet:
…………..
§ 2. Arten von Zivilflugplätzen
(1) Nach Maßgabe der Bestimmungen des Luftfahrtgesetzes und dieser Verordnung sind Zivilflugplätze folgender Art auf dem Lande oder Wasser zu bewilligen:
a) Flughäfen (§ 64 des Luftfahrtgesetzes),
b) Flugfelder (§ 65 des Luftfahrtgesetzes).
(2) Der Betriebsumfang von Zivilflugplätzen bestimmt sich:
a) nach der Art des zugelassenen Verkehrs (öffentlicher Flugplatz, Privatflugplatz),
b) nach der Art der Luftfahrzeuge, die den Zivilflugplatz benützen dürfen (zum Beispiel Motorflugzeuge, Hubschrauber, Segelflugzeuge),
c) nach der Art und den Ausmaßen (Klassen) der für den Start und die Landung vorgesehenen Bewegungsflächen und
d) nach der Art des zugelassenen Flugbetriebes (Sichtflugbetrieb bei Tag/Nacht, Instrumentenflugbetrieb, Präzisionsinstrumentenflugbetrieb der Kategorie I, II oder III).
it basically says that there are certain definded categories for civil airports/aerodroms/airfields permittet by law.
point (2)d) defines the categories of “approved flight operations” (vfr day/night, ifr etc. for these categories.) that could get permission by law.
that strongly suggests that a legal permission for a vfr airflield is very different from an aerodrome with ifr permission.
the key phrase here is “categories of approved flight operations”. it says “approved” not “possible”.
again i do not know wether this law might be overruled by eu law.
but as in itself it seems pretty clear that an vfr approved airfield is an vfr approved airfield and nothing more.
Are you aware that airfields stops at the runway surface? once the aircraft wheels leaves the ground, rules of the air is the only sherif in town (the only exception is ATC VFR airfields)
Ok here is one for you to understand how things works for flying VFR/IFR in Golf in Austria, can traffic depart VFR or IFR from Zell am See (LOWZ)? can they land IFR or VFR? this “VFR airport” has even a published IFR RNP “IAP approach” (an ugly variety called “cloud-break” for obvious reasons), how come?
PS: the only caveat here is now you DO need ATC IFR clearance to fly the “join SID/MVA” or “join IAF/IAP” (even in Golf) but not for anything else…
Snoopy wrote:
Just for completeness: The AIP is not legally binding. Hence “information publication”.
At some point in time it’s enough with confuscating a discussion with throwing in hypothetical pseudo-legal objections which are not existing. There is neither any objecting European law nor is there any national Austrian law that in that case says that AIP is not correct. It is completely irrelevant whether AIP is formally a legally binding document or not (btw.: for all practical purposes it is).
Fact is: You must not depart IFR from a VFR only airfield – full stop.
Ibra wrote:
Are you aware that airfields stops at the runway surface?
That is actually a much more interesting point: In both EASA and national regulation the term “airfield traffic” does not refer to ground movements only, but includes the (airborne) traffic in the traffic pattern. One could argue, that therefore VFR operations at an airfield includes that you need to be able to fly the traffic pattern in VMC as well (as the UK seems to have explicitly specified).
If we turn it around: What would be the sense of distinguishing between IFR and non IFR airfields if that definition is strictly limited to ground operations – in the end every IFR approach (except some cat III) is visual immediately above ground…
Ibra wrote:
can they land IFR or VFR? this “VFR airport” has even a published IFR RNP “IAP approach” (an ugly variety called “cloud-break” for obvious reasons), how come?
No, you can’t. Rmk 3. on the plate 12.1 clearly states “IFR arrival cancellation latest at MAP…”. You must not land IFR on this VFR only airport and you can not even enter airfield traffic IFR.
And for departure you need to stay VMC until WZ601 and until you passed 4800ft – which also includes that you can fly a traffic pattern VMC if something goes wrong.
So we agree you can depart Z, land Y in VFR airfields without IFR IAP or IFR SID, the question when you transit IFR after takeoff? some think it’s 1ft above surface, some 500ft, some 1000ft, some MSA, some MVA…
One could argue, that therefore VFR operations at an airfield includes that you need to be able to fly the traffic pattern in VMC as well (as the UK seems to have explicitly specified)
Ignore tha landing, how many times you have flown the traffic pattern on Z-FPL takeoff, except on circuits?
My point you are VFR until the point of first & last of sight surface, then you are IFR: I can put “my MAPt at 300ft MDH” on threshold and “my SID” at 1ft, who can tell me it’s illegal? in most uncontrolled airfields without ATS, there is “no ATZ”, no “VFR only volume”, no “ceiling minima”, “no mandatory circuit”, why do you think you have to fly the pattern as well and how high? if you have no obligation to fly a circuit you can skip, people do it all day along in sunny days: they depart straight-in and land straight-in 
If there is a published IFR IAP to an instrument runway in Golf or “VFR cloud-break” then it’s path and minima are legally binding, UK & France apply same principal, you can’t DIY IAP/SID to an airfield with published IAP/SID (except people who lie about NDB/DME and fly on GPS) nor fly it without clearance in Golf (if the paths takes you to airspace or runway surface), other than that you are a freeman in Golf
PS: on unlicensed UK AD like my old gliding grass runway (not in UK AIP), you can depart in 400m and 0ft ceiling, they are IFR like Heathrow, you can file I-FPL get en-route IFR clearance straight to Airways system
Some UK AIP ADs are worse, the default is you have to fly Overhead Joins at 2000ft agl on landing to inspect the “signal square area” (you need CAVOK for that) but I don’t recall trying that at Night or IMC, it will be silly anyway for anyone with enough brain cells, however, I felt brave to do that French MVL on IFR at Ouessant without ATC/AFIS at 10pm in dark night with ceiling at 2kft and 3km vis (I had to comply with practices to the latter as I had a one-off night authorisation waiver), so flew IAP then flew proper IFR circling then VFR circuit in VMC, not that I managed to see anything in signal square area nor windsock, looked nice from downwind, not a single traffic around in 50nm !
We know you can do this legally in the UK (an IFR dep in “10ft” cloudbase and >400m pilot-interpreted vis, from an airfield with no IAPs)
Yes, you can file I-FPL (in system or in your head) from any UK AD without IAP including grass strips, and if no ATC around you go IFR, but this is not the case in Austria, so you need VFR departure on Z-FPL or no-FPL !
Strictly speaking you can file I-FPL but can’t depart IFR, I know it’s not possible at Redhill (VFR ATC asks 5km & 1500ft and can’t let you depart uncontrolled IFR as their “volume is VFR only”) and also not possible at RAF Halton (no ATC but there is 3km & 800ft) due to airports regs
Yes I agree, still will be good to know if in Austria one can legally depart in 400m or 1.5km from LOIH? I am only interested in this, the ceiling is irrelevant for NCO takeoff by IR pilots (maybe this vary between UK or Germany)
I think 1.5km VFR is ok, 400m IFR I need to see a reg in Austria that says NO (the only one I can see in their AIP is you need runway lights ON for IFR takeoff with 400m)
On the debate EU law (SERA/NCO) vs National law, even the CAA in old days used to think as far as the law is concerned it’s EU law (things are different now) but I don’t recall Austria had an independence day? surely AustroControl would bounce the ball to EU SERA/NCO laws or aerodrome owner/operator to clarify if they allow it…
Ibra wrote:
My point you are VFR until the point of first & last of sight surface, then you are IFR: I can put “my MAPt at 300ft MDH” on threshold and “my SID” at 1ft, who can tell me it’s illegal?
Ok, if we agree you do that on a Z-Flightplan (because it is a VFR-only airfield and you can not file an I-FPL from there), then your FPL contains a specified point where you change flightrules from VFR to IFR. At least up until this point you need to be able to fly VFR and maintain VMC. Therefore even theoretically it is not possible on a Z-FPL to legally change flight rules as soon as wheels have left ground.
Ibra wrote:
n the debate EU law (SERA/NCO) vs National law, even the CAA in old days used to think as far as the law is concerned it’s EU law (things are different now) but I don’t recall Austria had an independence day?
This observation is right but irrelevant in this discussion because (as airborne pointed out correctly) there is nor EU law applicable to airfields like LOIH in that respect. Therefore there is nothing that can “trump” national law for such airfields.
