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What determines whether an aircraft is IFR certified?

luckymaaa wrote:

First in the POH it is written; Approved Operation, VFR by day in no-icing condition this even excludes VFR by night or i’m mistaken

Correct. I would check the POH which is the legally binding one for the airplane still, but generally, if a POH sais VFR by day in no icing, then that is it. No night, no IFR.

luckymaaa wrote:

The issue is, the club board expects every member to fly strait into IMC and thats why they do not want members to fly it IR.

Obviously any owner has the right to further limit the use of their airplane. That has nothing to do with part NCO, I know several who do arbitrary limitations on their airplanes which are part of the renters agreement, such as a ban flying to certain countries, such as a ban for carrying animals or certain cargo, such as runway limitations (I know several owners who disallow grass runways altogether and runways below 1000×30 m for instance) or even overnight parking at oustations e.t.c. It has nothing to do with the law, but with the owners.

Clubs generally love renters who fly circuits or VFR pleasure trips of 50-100 NM. They don’t want people who travel, their planes should be at home every evening if possible.

LSZH, Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Correct. I would check the POH which is the legally binding one for the airplane still, but generally, if a POH sais VFR by day in no icing, then that is it. No night, no IFR.

My European aircraft POH makes no direct statement on VFR, IFR or night, but in the placards section (only) it requires a placard stating operation of the plane is Limited to VFR Day and Night. It’s typical of the complicated ambiguity throughout the POH. That leaves one with the question of whether it’s an airframe certification or installed equipment limit… and oddly enough an FAA Designated Airworthiness Representative (FAA DAR) friend argues for the latter, that the plane could be flown IFR if so equipped, because there is no limitation stated in the appropriate POH section. I have no opinion…

There are numerous advantages to owning an aircraft originally certified by FAA, and as long ago as possible. The lack of any such VFR/IFR certification limitations in the POH, if a POH in the modern sense even exists, is one of those advantages.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 15 Oct 13:58

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Clubs generally love renters who fly circuits or VFR pleasure trips of 50-100 NM. They don’t want people who travel, their planes should be at home every evening if possible.

You are referring to clubs in Switzerland, I presume? Because I have not heard of any club with that kind of reasoning in Sweden.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Because I have not heard of any club with that kind of reasoning in Sweden.

We have done this before here many times. Ultimately, if somebody takes a plane away for 2 weeks and flies it for just 4 hours during that time, somebody must pay for that. Heavily….

There is no escape from that basic fact.

How exactly such abuse of privilege is funded in Sweden might be interesting. I can think of one scenario (not Sweden) where “club” activities are funded by shafting PPL students i.e. a transfer of money from transient customers to the established members. Most students give up fairly soon so the established members get a steady subsidy. It looks very nice (very “clubby”) from the outside

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

luckymaaa wrote:

We have a DR401 with G500 and GTN650 and STec 55×.
First in the POH it is written; Approved Operation, VFR by day in no-icing condition

Amazing that someone buys an aircraft with G500 and GTN650 then either doesn’t care that it’s VFR only or want’s it to be VFR only.
Why spend the money to have the G500 and the GTN650 in the first place? Basic VFR avionics and an IPAD seems like more value for money.

ESTL

True, but you know too much

I know a guy who has installed maybe 100 GNS430 boxes, in “club”, “school” and privately owned planes.

No logbook entries. Well, sometimes somebody else does the entry… GA is full of little guys who work inside somebody else’s hangar… They are really handy and without them the world would be a poor place.

None of those 100 installs can fly IFR using that GPS. I think they can fly an ILS/VOR legally, just about, but no approaches or enroute IFR, especially not in CAS (BRNAV required i.e. AFMS).

What % of GA owners know about the AFMS? 1%?

It is a paradox that you can legally fly an ILS in OVC002/550m (or whatever it is today) with a radio installation done without any AFMS etc but cannot legally navigate with it the little bit of straight line from KONAN to KOK at FL100

That is the paradox which has forced the keeping of shagged out 1970s avionics in shagged out piston twins used in AOC ops, for many years after us private pilots moved to GPS.

Also I suspect that Robin purchase was a " committee decision "

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Hello,
when reading through the AFM again i found a section supplements were it is possible to fly VFR by Night with additional equipement.
This in fact is not what it was intendet, when we got it delivered in 2014 it was mentioned that, appart of the DME it should be ready for IFR (VMC IFR!)
And as Mistral has a IFR demontrator it is possible to get it IFR and the Mistral DR401 has the G500, GTN750 and a S Tec 55x, so i do not see the problems.
Wrote the Board a Email, looking forward to their answer.

@Anders, you are correct, maybe up to 70,000Sfr cheaper with basic VFR euqipement ….

Lucasp

Last Edited by luckymaaa at 15 Oct 15:48

i found a section supplements were it is possible to fly VFR by Night with additional equipement.

I may have written this before, but this is standard Socata practice (a TBxx is day+night VFR only, per my DGAC-approved POH), probably standard Robin practice, and probably standard DGAC practice.

For several reasons I could list, the % of owners who are bothered by this will be very small, and the % who will make a fuss will be zero

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

A_and_C wrote:

Has the DR401 got another independently powered attitude indicator apart from the G500 ?

Yes it has stby instrument but i can’t remember the model

@Peter, yes but as with the new NCO rules you as a Pilot are responsible that the Aircraft is equipped properly this might need to change ?

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