Peter wrote:
It appears a fact (correct me if I am wrong) that none of the pricey certified systems which many people have retrofitted and which come installed in most new IFR tourers will see any ADS-B emitting traffic other than SIL-3 i.e. a fully certified ADS-B OUT.
Regulators should, and IMO at some point will understand that it is just as painful to bump into a SIL-0 plane as to bump into a SIL-3 one, so displaying these targets is much better than nothing.
Peter wrote:
So the Q is how one can most practically see non-SIL-3 ADS-B traffic?I am not interested in looking on an Ipad, which I don’t have anyway, and have nowhere to put it where it is in view.
You may not be interested, but the vast majority of pilots do not fly high-end IFR tourers and their main method for practical navigation is a moving map tablet app. Even some IFR pilots use such a product for extra situational awareness. So this is how one can most practically see all ADS-B traffic.
Btw, not having an iPad is hardly an argument. For the cost of a used GNS-430, you can by at least 15 iPads, and for the total cost of a TAS retrofit you could probably fully stock an Apple Store…
Regulators should, and IMO at some point will understand that it is just as painful to bump into a SIL-0 plane as to bump into a SIL-3 one, so displaying these targets is much better than nothing.
That is wishful thinking, however.
Are there any panel mounted display options?
Air avionics has several options of hidden away boxes outputting Garmin TIS or ARINC429 and also some 80 mm panel mount units
Peter wrote:
So the Q is how one can most practically see non-SIL-3 ADS-B traffic?
Using European products, such as power flarm, Garrecht TRX, and I guess as Jason suggested GDL as well (not sure on that one though). These products can be installed with a display on their own, or some versions such as Garrecht TRX has an output ability to put these on RS-232 or ARINC 429 whatever you need.
So basically you have a choice between wireless linkage to a tablet, a dedicated sceen from the product itself, or using an MFD or GPS which accepts traffic input.
So would you benefit from it? If you expected merged data, no. Do you need ADS-B in capability? IMHO not really as you have a TAS. You would see them anyway as they are broadcasting mode S anyway.
As I and others tried to point out several times, it would make the most diffence for the lower end of the market, having accurate traffic without breaking the bank.
What should happen is that people see that ADS-B is the future, and will increase safety both for themself and others. As nearly every aircraft has a form of GPS (remember NMEA data can be accepted by some) the additional cost is a single wire.
Peter wrote:
That is wishful thinking, however.
I don’t think so, there is a big difference between EASA and FAA here. All European low cost products will display them, and even display them on an MFD if you prefer
JnsV wrote:
Regulators should, and IMO at some point will understand that it is just as painful to bump into a SIL-0 plane as to bump into a SIL-3 one, so displaying these targets is much better than nothing.
Agreed. They always could implement a filter mode to filter these out, if one would want to.
Presumably one could make a box which merges SIL-3 data with non-SIL-3 data (from some separate ADS-B receiver) and presents the merged stream to the certified display device (GTN750, SN3500, etc).
ARINC429 in and out.
Illegal but a nice project for somebody 
I tried to find out the protocols for this but they appear to be under NDA so one would need to rig something up and reverse engineer it.
This project would be way ahead of the market in Europe, however, especially in places where half the traffic wants to be invisible.
Peter wrote:
however, especially in places where half the traffic wants to be invisible.
I think this argument gets overdone to be honest. I really can’t believe that a meaningful percentage of private pilots either don’t fit or don’t turn on transponders to avoid being seen or to avoid CAS busts. In general I would think it is due to cost or not needing to access CAS (no txprdr) or not being trained and thinking that if they are not flying near CAS, why turn it on?
JnsV wrote:
Regulators should, and IMO at some point will understand that it is just as painful to bump into a SIL-0 plane as to bump into a SIL-3 one, so displaying these targets is much better than nothing.
It is in the RTCA DO 317A for certified cockpit display systems. This is the basis for the TSO C195a requirement not to display SIL=0. SIL=0 get received regardless of the display, they just can’t be displayed. I can see SIL=0 targets on my iPad that are received by my certified ADS-B Out/In system and passed to the iPad via bluetooth. I can’t see these same targets on my panel mount. Many of the SIL=0 targets put out pure garbage, particularly portable ADS-B Out units such as SkyGuard that are available in the US and not applicable to Europe as they are UAT based.
People think their units are providing an accurate and dependable position, but often that is not the case and pilots are simply fat dumb and happy and totally oblivious to what their systems are emitting. In the US, there is an email address that one sends information to and obtains a report on the performance of their unit from the FAA. I would be surprised if a similar capability exists outside of the US. All of the data is recorded by the FAA and cross checked with radar. I have received kml files that show the 1 second position of some problematic installations on google earth.
JasonC wrote:
I am checking with Garmin but I think the GDL39 will also show SIL=0 targets. Again I really think that getting the bulk of aircraft to radiate ADS-B could provide a huge benefit to safety.
Jason,
Certified and not certified ADS-B In systems receive all the targets. Not displaying SIL=0 targets is a traffic display system issue. So my GDL88/FS210 or a GTX345 or a GDL39 receives all targets including the SIL=0 ones. TSO C195a (RTCA DO 317A) prevents my GNS530W from displaying the SIL=0 targets, but my iPad can display all of the targets using bluetooth from the receiver and either ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot, as they are not certified systems.
JasonC wrote:
I think this argument gets overdone to be honest. I really can’t believe that a meaningful percentage of private pilots either don’t fit or don’t turn on transponders to avoid being seen or to avoid CAS busts.
My experience is that there is a lot of truth in what Peter says. I used to fly with a Xaon XRX device and was surprised by the number of GA planes that flew near me without the box detecting them. I later swapped that out for a PowerFlarm device and I see the same thing. The impression I get is that there are lots of GA weekend pilots who fly rather infrequently and who worry….they worry about getting lost and about infringements and about how to operate listening squarks and about calls to en-route radio controllers etc etc. They think that the safest thing for them to do is to fly whilst bothering as few people as possible and to not transpond so as to reduce the risk of getting caught doing something wrong. After all, who knows if they “forget” to turn on their transponder when they take off?
I had an airprox a few months ago, under the London TMA. I reported it. It was investigated and a report published – classified as a Risk B event. The other aircraft did not have its transponder operating at the time…. Under the London TMA! One of the busiest areas of uncontrolled airspace in the UK! Whilst the Airprox board work hard to not apportion blame in their reports (because it is thought that this would lead to reduced reporting) the report does say that by not transponding the other aircraft failed to allow my Powerflarm device to detect his presence… Before the report was published the chap at the Airprox board and I had an interesting open discussion on such matters. He was very forthright.
I doubt there are (m)any deliberately non-transponding pilots reading this forum. That’s the point isn’t it? The ones who don’t transpond mostly don’t take their flying terribly professionally / seriously. I wouldn’t mind that attitude if they didn’t also put my life at risk, but by not transponding they do! I honestly think that something should be done, certainly in the busy airspace around London. I know of two other very near misses recently in that airspace and it’s madness not to do what is easily doable, to help to reduce such risks – turn on your transponder!
NCYankee wrote:
Certified and not certified ADS-B In systems receive all the targets. Not displaying SIL=0 targets is a traffic display system issue.
Yes you are right of course. I meant that Garmin Pilot doesn’t filter them out.
