(Not sure this is the right forum)
I’ve been playing around with flight plans for the LDLO trip. For the return, Foreflight’s Eurocontrol approved route takes you across Italy to Genoa, more or less, then suddenly sends you south practically to Corsica before a complex U-shaped route back to Cannes. In fact it does this for ANY arrival from the east, even from Milan. But when I look on Foreflight, I see loads of flights – including one from Croatia – that just mosey along the Italian coast until the French border, then do a sort of Concave U-shape presumably out to INLOV to start the approach to Cannes.
So, though I, easy. I modified my flight plan to do just that, via IVLAM and PETUR. And, guess, what, Eurocontrol rejects it. And what’s more, with some totally mysterious messages. My favourite goes something like:
ROUTE xxx THEDCT SEGMENT OTMUV IVLAM (70 NM) IS TOO LONG FOR LIFRA:000:305. MAXIMUM IS 0 NM.
Does anyone have any idea what exactly that is supposed to mean? There are more like this, and some others requally incomprehensible – see below.
@johnh, MAX direct is what it is – local xAA limit max direct to certain limit (in many cases it is 0, i.e. DCTs are prohibited).
All limits are in Eurocontrol RAD (please choose the correct AIRAC on the left):
https://www.nm.eurocontrol.int/RAD/index.html
If you put information here DEP, DEST & a/c type plus all the limitations you want to impose (like max ALT, no water overflights etc), we could try to help you.
My favourite RAD limitation is that you CANNOT fly over Biarritz at FL250, unless you departed EGLC. :)
The wonders of the Eurocontrol system. Some messages are more comprehensible than others. Understanding them sometimes helps in resolving them. But then, manual hacking of routes is usually a pain, and often a rabbit hole. Rather, you should aim to get a valid and decent route right off the routing engine. Change your altitude constraints to see if things improve. If not, try autorouter to see if you can get something better. It is often merely a results of your settings/constraints. Shit in, shit out principle. And sometimes, there are simply too many restrictions and too few solutions to produce any sensical result on certain routes.
If you put information here DEP, DEST & a/c type o
LDLO – LFMD TB20 max altitude FL120. Foreflight gives me a perfectly reasonable route up to OTMUV. The problem is the STAR into LFMD. But evidently nobody ever actually flies it. So I guess in real life you get to OTMUV or so and they give you “Direct IVLAM” or some such.
(My wife tells me that my problem is that I’m too British and not French enough, so I expect the rules to be followed, most of the time anyway. Whereas anyone who has grown up in France – and no doubt also Italy – knows that rules are just there to give you something to do to figure out how to work round them).
johnh wrote:
LDLO – LFMD TB20 max altitude FL120. Foreflight gives me a perfectly reasonable route up to OTMUV. The problem is the STAR into LFMD. But evidently nobody ever actually flies it. So I guess in real life you get to OTMUV or so and they give you “Direct IVLAM” or some such.
johnh, I think in that case you just ask for directs and you’ll get them. :)
I found that one: N0152F100 PUL L614 CHI M859 LUPOS/N0152F110 M859 EKPAL Z388 OTMUV M858 TORTU A9 AKUTI R16 KERIT KERIT2V
And you could ask for a different STAR when airborne and in Italian airspace (OZMIC2V is much short)
Another one is: N0152F100 PUL L614 CHI M859 LUPOS/N0152F110 M859 LAGEN Q712 ENOBA/N0152F140 Z185 BORDI BORDI2V
And then ask for what you want while in the air (risk is they force you FL140 after ENOBA).
OZMIC2V is much short
I tried switching the arrival to OZMIC. I got:
The STAR OZMIC2V is not valid because it is closed.
Why does this make me imagine a giant padlocked barrier up at FL100?
I guess the answer is to file what works, and then request direct when you’re up there. Which presumably is what everyone does anyway.
johnh wrote:
I guess the answer is to file what works, and then request direct when you’re up there. Which presumably is what everyone does anyway.
Yep! :)
Worst case scenario is that you will fly what you filed.
DCT too long means the airspace concerned has a MAXDCT=0 parameter sent to Eurocontrol by the owner of the airspace.
Or a DCT attempted across a national border; those are normally not allowed, and actually ATC will almost never authorise such a DCT in flight, either. Unless it is “to avoid” but French ATC will probably insist forcefully “the military controller is very angry” 
Note also that IFR ops are impossible to an airport which does not have SID/STARs (and thus needs a DCT connection) if the airspace has a MAXDCT=0. Albania (LATI) is one, IIRC.
Search EuroGA for “charade”. Actually the link is below.
johnh wrote:
Does anyone have any idea what exactly that is supposed to mean? There are more like this, and some others requally incomprehensible – see below.
I asked ChatGPT for you just for fun, this is its output:
The EUROCONTROL message regarding the rejected flight plan can be broken down as follows:
1. ROUTE xxx: This refers to a specific route or flight plan that you’ve submitted. The “xxx” is likely a placeholder for the actual route identifier or number.
2. THEDCT SEGMENT OTMUV IVLAM (70 NM): This indicates that there’s a direct (DCT) segment in your flight plan between the waypoints “OTMUV” and “IVLAM” that is 70 nautical miles (NM) long.
3. IS TOO LONG FOR LIFRA:000:305: This suggests that the direct segment between OTMUV and IVLAM is too long for a specific rule or constraint identified as “LIFRA:000:305”. “LIFRA” might be a specific rule or regulation identifier, and “000:305” could be a specific section or subsection of that rule.
4. MAXIMUM IS 0 NM: This is the crux of the rejection. It states that the maximum allowed distance for a direct segment under the rule “LIFRA:000:305” is 0 nautical miles. In other words, direct segments are not allowed under this rule.
In summary, the flight plan was rejected because it contains a direct segment between the waypoints OTMUV and IVLAM that is 70 NM long, but the rule “LIFRA:000:305” does not allow any direct segments (maximum allowed is 0 NM). To resolve this, you would likely need to adjust the flight plan to include additional waypoints between OTMUV and IVLAM to ensure compliance with the rule.
And that is not an option if MAXDCT=0.
If MAXDCT > 0 but is some low number like 10nm, the procedure here is an option (and please do not yet again criticise that method as a way to get around regs) but this situation is not all that common; IIRC it worked in that example because France has a MAXDCT=10 over the Channel, to frustrate DCTs.
CHATGPT has some way to go. It merely groups words and phrases statistically.
Worst case scenario is that you will fly what you filed.
It could actually be a lot worse.
