I enjoyed some aeros as a passenger this year and am planning on doing the training next year. I have a choice of a T67, Pitts S2 or if I drive further, a Citabria (quite a bit further so may not be realistic). Instructors for each aircraft are each well regarded but in different organisations, hence in part the question.
Just wondering what the views are on the optimal training aircraft. I have been told that the T67 is slower and makes you learn things better, but if you keep up with the Pitts, you may miss some of the finer points but will be set up for good basic aero skills quicker. No rush, but I obviously want to be safe and competent.
At this stage, I am not planning on progressing to “hardcore” aeros or competitions.
My current regular tailwheel aircraft is not aero capable so would rent when I would want to practice.
I train/fly aerobatics in a Saab Safir. It’s OK I guess, except that it gets snags all the time, and it takes months to get new parts. It’s a bit complicated IMO, CS prop with an “integrating” RPM counter, retracts, and it’s underpowered. I have heard that a Citabria is close to perfect as an aerobatics trainer. I did lots of aerobatics 20 years ago in a C-152 Aerobat, but that was before “ratings” and with the new regulations I have to redo everything. It’s also underpowered, but very easy and nice to fly. I have never flown a Pitts S2, but would be surprised if it takes less than 10-20 hours just to get used to it. Just landing a Pitts looks difficult, and everything must happen very fast with the short wings and fuselage and abundance of power.
Personally, I’d choose a military trainer. T67 is one, but it exists in versions from 118 to 260 hp – the one formerly used by RAF is the 260, with the PIC seat on the right. Low-power versions are certainly much less interesting, alghouth in return they would teach you more about energy management.
By the way, isn’t there also a Chipmunk at White Waltham? It has a reputation of an excellent trainer for basic aerobatics.
It’s really a matter of taste, but I think I might try the T67. To me Citabrias fly like Aeronca Champs, lots of effort and not very sporty feeling. The Pitts would be fantastic fun but I think it’s a bit serious for the job, you need to fly a Pitts often to stay current and if you fly it infrequently every time could end up being a repeat of the first flight.
Silvaire is right in terms of bang for buck. The Pitts for example will spoil you rotten – loads of power, loads of performance.
But .. .. there is something to be gained on Citabrias or their like. Less power, less performance means thinking a lot more about energy management and in some ways the aircraft will be more revealing of good handling and boy will the smile be even bigger when you transition to the Pitts or something similiar.
Also unless you are already accustom to a sporty taildragger, there is a lot more to learn just to fly the aircraft in terms of the ground handling and the “unusual” approach profile.
Just another point of view.
If you are at White Waltham home of Alan Cassidy (Pitts S2B?), I would suggest the choice not to train with Alan needs to be thought through carefully.
I trained originally in a Decathlon, very good aircraft. I got my instructor ticket for aerobatics in a T67M – very good teaching aircraft.
Thanks all for your feedback so far, it’s really helpful.
I do fly out of White Waltham and there are many aerobatic capable aircraft from Chipmunks to Nan Chiang/Yaks to Tiger Moths as well as a pair of CAP10’s, but all privately owned/syndicates.
I currently fly a Luscombe so the extent of my “aerobatic” flying is trying to gently manoeuvre in slow flight on the edge of stall or lazy eights, chandelles (hint: I need some training as those leave something to be desired). Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy the Luscombe, but it cannot deliver on the aero side.
I have very good feedback on both Alan and his colleagues (Pitts) as well as the club instructor (160 hp T67) so am trying to work out what to start with. I figure if I really get the bug, I will eventually move on to a properly aero capable aircraft, or if I can afford it, have shares in two a/c unless I can find the ideal compromise a/c.
From what you are saying, I gather that starting on a more basic a/c will teach me energy management and necessary inputs for an underpowered a/c which will stand me in good stead going forward.
@robertl18c Alan only teaches in the Pitts or gives radio advice if flying another a/c, so that might be part of the progression?
Any other thoughts or views on aeros, please don’t hesitate. I am early in my flying “career” as a hobby, and am setting some goals to work towards whilst just enjoying flying – but my couple of aeros experience left me smiling enough to cause radio interference.
I do my tumbles in a CAP10 and I find it a delight to fly. Well suited for beginners and (relatively) easy to handle in the circuit. Treat aerobatics as any other discipline of flying, be well prepared and rehearse procedures for everything, that makes life easier. Entry speeds, g-pulls, counting etc. etc. Always have a distinct plan of your maneuvers.
Unless you have some good tailwheel hours, the Pitts is probably going to scare you take some time mastering in the circuit.
Treat yourself to the books “Basic Aerobatics” and “Advanced Aerobatics” by Mike Goulian and Geza Szurovy for Christmas.
Fly safe!
CKN agree his teaching may be more relevant when you decide to compete.
Have not flown in a Pitts but am told the S2 is reasonably friendly. I will try in due course to get some time with Alan and his book Better Aerobatics is excellent.
Hi CKN. GLad you are considering a training course in aeros. FWIW, all advice above is excellent. I displayed the De Havilland Chipmunk, in fact my first DA was in the Chippy. I have aero’d in my Yak 50, trained with Genady Elfimov in the 52, and done a fair amount of hours in a Stolp Starduster.
My least favourite aeroplane is the Pitts. We had one for about six months, and I never got to like it. That is a very personal opinion. Energy management is what it is all about, and I found learning in the Chipmunk, perhaps the best trainer, ever, really settled me. The Chipmunk is one of these aeroplanes, easy to fly, but difficult to fly well. Aeros are superb, because, energy management in the Chipmunk is key. In fact, my advice would be to start on a lower powered aircraft, with fine handling, and an instructor who knows the game. The Pitts is a bit of a handful, particularly for a beginner.
That said, I flew a Grob 115D last week, and it handled perfectly. Very military, was really impressed.
However, you will know what, and where you wish to take your aeros, and you can never stop learning.
Best of luck, and let us know what you chose.
