Robin DR401 as an IFR tourer

stevelup wrote:

The only design choice I would question is the use of drum brakes which are a pita to set up but work well if maintained properly

YES… The biggest constant niggling hassle I’ve got with mine. Any tips?

I would imagine the only real solution is replace them with disc brakes, if there is an approved mod for the aircraft.

My aircraft had drum brakes when I got it, and with the added complication of being cable operated and 60 years old, the first thing we did was replace them with disc brakes. At the time the aircraft was still on a CofA and there was an approved modification to use the Cleveland brakes and wheels (using the double cylinder calipers – 30-52N). They are not harsh and operate very consistently and progressively – given our aircraft has a tailwheel (and a free castoring one at that – so brakes are needed to steer on the ground) this is very important. A previous owner of the aircraft in the syndicate it was in before I had it repeatedly vetoed the installation of disc brakes because “You’ll stick it on its nose” – but in actual fact, I think you’re less likely to do this with consistent smooth operating disc brakes than with grabby inconsistent drum brakes that can go out of adjustment in flight.

lenthamen wrote:

I’ve discussed this with Robin. New Robins have disk brakes.

Oh of course they have. Sorry, even the DR400s I know have Disk brakes, I was referring to the DR250.

alioth wrote:

but in actual fact, I think you’re less likely to do this with consistent smooth operating disc brakes than with grabby inconsistent drum brakes that can go out of adjustment in flight.

Probably. It’s a question of the installation, I have seen some disk brakes on Moranes that would be not suitable at all, but I’d prefer a good set up disk brake, too.

Robin_253 wrote:

I have no idea how long the unstitched but glued fabric on ribs will last.

With Oratex probably longer than the ribs themselves.

and most of the parts you actually need are standard Lycoming / light aircraft stuff you can order direct from Spruce if you want, or go direct to the subcontractors.
In eight years I only had to deal with the Robin factory once and it was fine. I called them up, flew to Dijon (at the time I was 2hrs flight time away), and it was replaced on the spot on the same day.

It is an ultra simple airframe, very little to break, very easy to repair on the spot.

You hear the same ‘difficult to get parts’ story about Mooneys and that’s even less true as there is a huge number of parts suppliers in the US. On older airframes, any mechanic who simply expects to call the factory and get a part is not doing his job, you have to do a little bit of legwork, there are plenty of other ways to get parts quickly, cheaply and efficiently, and in the age of the internet it is extremely easy. If you buy an aircraft brand new, OK, I guess you should expect prompt support, but again, on a simple airframe, especially if it is new, there is not much to break.

mh – DR250 Capitaine, probably the best and prettiest model ever (basically a tailwheel version of my DR360!)… imagine if they relaunched a new version with modern avionics and engine! I guess the Mousquetaire would be nice too.

GTN750 position:

Yes, in the newest demonstrator the GTN750 IS lower – its a question of how you configure your panel – I think they used a headless ADF or RadioBox2 to make more space.

Parts supply:

The supply chain of engine & avionics, tyres and other usual consumable parts is largely the same as in, for e.g., a DA40: mine needed a warning lamp changed at the annual and the maintenance outfit got it within 2hrs – it was nothing rare. When I was at the factory I saw that they keep stock of the ‘hand made’ parts for current models but they have a metal shop where they still hand-make the parts for models going back to the very beginning of production – I think this is amazing service, but of course must take time. If you’re looking at a new plane I don’t think parts-supply is a constant issue, but in any case I have found them to be very helpful and friendly and constructive and speaking perfect English – certainly not a faceless corporation.

Cost/hour

With 24l JETA1 you have an hourly fuel cost around £20, hourly engine fund also under £20 as A_and_C said and with fixed 100hr maintenance interval (replaces the annual) costing £1980 (my first one cost this – includes 20% VAT) – you have under £20/hr maintenance. There are a few other items such as prop, gearbox and hoses, but a basic hourly cost under £60 for carrying four full-sized adults gives you plenty of scope for saving for the ad-hoc items that come later in life. Really I can’t think that you can match these costs for a FOUR person IFR tourer.

BUT I don’t think most people choose a plane based on rational equations – I think there’s some prejudice against wooden aircraft, and lets face it, until the new engine, if you found a diesel Robin it was more likely to be a glider tug or a school-plane than a stylish touring aircraft, so I think the brand lacks some sort of emotional connection with people – ask anyone who has flown or had a Robin and they LOVE them, but those who haven’t turn their noses up. It’s an interesting dilemma for the company in fact…

- someone said to me “for that money you could’ve had an SR22” while not a new one, that is true, but I prefer the Robin DR401 – it has dramatically more feel in the controls, it goes places the SR22 can’t and for a fraction of the cost per flight… and I like the elegance of a light and quiet “pilot’s-plane” made by craftsman with a clever material, rather than throwing AVGAS at a heavy beast to make it roar through the skies… I know everyone loves the plane they own, and I’ve sat in an SR22 and marvelled at the cabin, but I feel a real affinity with mine in such a short time, I hope the message reaches enough people to make the ‘rational’ choice more ‘desirable’ over time.

Someday I must make a report from the factory showing the craftsmen at work…

Thanks neal. For your diesel, what are typical range / payload figures? I looked a bit at SR22 G2 but they seem pretty terrible.

Maybe the biggest lesson from this thread to me is that the rationality of any given aircraft choice varies hugely depending on individual circumstance… A wooden airframe that might be risky for some wouldn’t be an issue at all for me (my planes almost never get exposure to water), and the Diesel engine that may be rational for group ownership and 350 hrs/year at €20/hr would be insane for me (my plane has 1000 hrs total time in 45 years, gets flown 50 hrs per year now, and the cost of engine overhaul so far is zero). The Robins are attractive to me because they’re built by a very small company on a human scale with airframes that can be repaired and maintained without a lot of tools or technology. Also because they mostly have stick controls and good visibility, and I like the appearance of a fabric covered wing. Not much rationality at work in those latter factors

@172Driver, yep, L35.

Silvaire wrote:

Maybe the biggest lesson from this thread to me is that the rationality of any given aircraft choice varies hugely depending on individual circumstance…

Isn’t that beautiful? There are enough planes for every purpose and every budget :-)

podair wrote:

mh – DR250 Capitaine, probably the best and prettiest model ever (basically a tailwheel version of my DR360!)… imagine if they relaunched a new version with modern avionics and engine! I guess the Mousquetaire would be nice too.

I won’t argue with the beauty of the 250 :-) It is more economical than an SR22 already, but then again the SR22 isn’t built for economy but for comfort and safety. I do think you’d get a couple of people to buy both the DR250 or the D140, and the DR1050, too. You have to pay insane amounts of money for all of them in good condition, the D140 with just a Radio and transponder is often way north of 70000€ used. But it will carry a whole family with any luggage including the kitchen sink. There has been an IFR D140 in Germany for a while but it was sold to some French pilots and they pretty much tore all avionics and the AP out. But it was reportedly a very capable IFR tourer, too.

The GAD43 is the KI256 vacuum AI emulator, surely? As is the EA100 in the Aspen product line.

A modern autopilot will take ARINC429 roll steering commands directly from a modern GPS. Older autopilots need a roll steering converter which usually converts the ARINC429 roll steering commands into a fake analog heading bug signal.