I also started with gliders. I wouldn’t say rudder is more necessary there than for a Cub on hard surface in a cross wind.
I’m also all for starting out in gliders. And one might find out after a while that as far as leisure aviation goes he/ she doesn’t need more. Also, under EASA there is an interesting path to LAPL(A)/ PPL(A) via TMGs, especially so if you want to get IR early. You can also learn basics of instrument flying in a glider by getting a cloud flying rating. And it seems the training for it could be credited towards IR (via the CB route). But that’s just my interpretation (the wording suggests it but that might not be enough since sailplanes are a different category) and your NAA might disagree.
+1 on learning in gliders, you really need to use rudder that and be more careful than in 172. And every glider is different and requires you to use a different level of boot in. This is not that visible and clear in powered aircraft.
RobertL18C wrote:
Perhaps we need aircraft with pronounced adverse yaw to properly teach use of rudder, like the old training taildraggers.
I learned to fly in a glider. You really learned how to handle adverse yaw…
A bit sobering, but good non technical advice.
Coordinated flight is taught. But why the need to fly coordinated, is not often explained. 20 degree turns are standard rate, so good practice to ingrain for people who go on to IR training.
I have, and I think most of us have, pushed the rudder a little extra to try to tighten a turn, or line up with rwy, or intercept a localizer at some point. It’s not like this the practice of extremely sloppy pilots – it’s a practice of a majority I would venture.
Silvaire wrote:
The sailplanes I’ve flown had plenty of adverse yaw and I think would train a pilot very well to use the rudder. They also had lots of washout (or flew like it) and didn’t seem to spin unintentionally out of uncoordinated flight.
The amount of washout on gliders depends on their age and whether they are training or cross-country machine. Also on a few type the designer got it wrong and the wash-out is increased after some serial number.
Gliders do spin intentionally and unintentionally. We loose pilots to low, slow, over-ruddered final turns (at airfield or field landing). Some glider lack the elevator authority to get it to spin intentionally. But that doesn’t mean that they won’t if luck is against you.
The historical correlation between adverse yaw and tailwheel aircraft is because nose wheel landing gear was developed in parallel with improved ailerons. Also because old aircraft need to be able to fly uncoordinated with ease (because they ground loop unless aligned with the runway in a cross wind, and lacking flaps they are slipped to land).
The sailplanes I’ve flown had plenty of adverse yaw and I think would train a pilot very well to use the rudder. They also had lots of washout (or flew like it) and didn’t seem to spin unintentionally out of uncoordinated flight.
I can’t see what a taildragger configuration has to do with adverse yaw?
If you want to learn to use coordinated controls then try gliding! Due to the large wingspan nearly all gliders will demonstrate a fair degree of adverse yaw and require coordinated controls; really good experience. The stall/spin danger really comes in when people leave rudder applied beyond that required to remain in balance, as opposed to using in when rolling into / out of the turn to coordinate.
I learned how to fly in a tail dragger with a honest but less than forgiving nature. If you have the right instructor I think you learn a lot that you’d probably be unaware of otherwise, and it doesn’t leave you. On the other hand if your instructor were inadequate the chances of something bad happening would be pretty high, with base to final being one of the issues. It takes a great deal more attention and care to fly many 1930s design aircraft than a trainer designed later on. In a ideal world you could do 25 hrs in something like a Luscombe, then move on to something like a 172 or Tecnam 2002, depending on goals etc. But I think a fraction of students would get frustrated or scared early in that process, and quit. The world is a very forgiving place today, and many people are not prepared for anything that isn’t forgiving.
