When I looked into this, the ATOs said that sim training could only be done at an ATO as part of a complete (40h) training course. So either you do flight training outside of an ATO on a real plane, which you can then credit at the “final” ATO, or you do everything at the same ATO. But maybe that wasn’t a regulatory requirement, just a commercial argument.
zuutroy wrote:
But only 10 hours have to be done at the ATO which does authorises the test at the end right? So I can in theory do 25 hours of sim and 5 hours of flight training at my local school and then present myself in Spain/UK for the last 10 hours of training, written test, and flight test.
No, it won’t work that way: See Appendix 6 Part-FCL Aa 6. ff: Training outside of an ATO can only be credited if it was flight instruction, not instrument ground time:
(i) When the applicant has:
(A) completed instrument flight instruction provided by an IRI(A) or an FI holding the privilege to provide training for the IR; or
(B) […]
these hours may be credited towards the 40 hours above up to maximum of 30 hours
Additionally 6.(iii) specifies that you need at least 10 hrs in an ATO on an aeroplane:
(iii) In any case, the flying training shall include at least 10 hours of instrument flight time under instruction in an aeroplane at an ATO.
Tobias
Thanks Tobias. Just one final clarification: My local school is an ATO for other licenses and ratings (just not EIR and CBIR). So is it still the case that because it is NOT the ATO which will authorise the flight test that sim time won’t count?
If I’m understanding you right, only FNPT time logged as part of a specific, approved CBIR course at the ATO which sends you for the flight test counts. You can however put airborne instrument instruction with any qualified instructor towards the rating to a maximum of 30 hours.
zuutroy wrote:
So is it still the case that because it is NOT the ATO which will authorise the flight test that sim time won’t count?
This is not about said ATO not sending you to the test (you could – with some hassle – even change ATOs during your training), but rather about the fact that this ATO has no approved CB-IR course. So every hour you fly with them only counts as training outside the ATO.
If I’m understanding you right, only FNPT time logged as part of a specific, approved CBIR course at the ATO which sends you for the flight test counts. You can however put airborne instrument instruction with any qualified instructor towards the rating to a maximum of 30 hours.
That is my understanding and that is how I tailor the CB-IR-training for my students. If you want to use FNPT-time, you could e.g. fly only 25 hrs. outside the ATO and then do 5 hrs FNPT and 10 hrs. airplane during the ATO-course. But you need to fly at least 10 hrs. in an airplane at the ATO, see above.
Tobias
Experiences with CB-IR in the Netherlands (also Ireland, and other places)
Last Friday, I passed my IR skill test (via the CB-IR route).
I thought it might be useful to share some experiences of the training, since this might be of interest for other people in the Netherlands considering CB-IR. I read this forum myself, looking for experiences from others, and so far I saw mainly examples of people training in other countries like UK and Germany.
The theory has been done with Dutch Aviation College, based on CBIR/EIR learning objectives. This is mainly distance learning, with some ground school sessions on Saturday. I have made the traditional exams in Utrecht, but recently this has changed to digital exams that can be done every day. Overall the theory is not difficult, but still a lot of work to do, despite the fact that the learning objectives of EIR are less than traditional IR. I think the upcoming Basic Instrument Rating could be a step in the right direction here. The AviationExam app was very useful to prepare myself for the exams, although some exams had quite a lot new questions as well.
My practical training has been done with an ATO at Lelystad (EHLE), Singles & Twins. My FI was Freek Hoogeveen (who I highly recommend). I started with a assessment flight where basic instrument flying skills were assessed, as well as my ability to intercept VORs etc. Based on that, I could start the training with a 40 hour minimum (I didn’t have any other relevant IFR experience for crediting)
My first training hours have been made in a FNPT II simulator, being available at EHLE. I considered this very helpful, because you can practise all procedures, and do a lot of approaches very efficiently. Also, I trained a lot of approaches to minimums, and did more complex procedures on busy fields, which is hard to practise in real life. Also useful is to experience how far off the centerline you are with a half scale deflection in a VOR approach, and what this means in situations with bad visibility.
After the simulator, I trained in a PA28 with basic instruments and a 430W. Basic, but very good to learn the elementary skills in my opinion. Training was mainly done at Groningen (EHGG), De Kooy (EHKD) and Rotterdam (EHRD), since EHLE is not (yet) an IFR field. This means of course that you have enroute sections every flight, but this part was used quite efficiently with setup, briefing, interceptions, all kinds of airwork etc. I didn’t have the feeling that my training was inefficient because of this. A disadvantage is that sometimes the weather is not good enough for a VFR departure, causing the entire lesson to be cancelled. This will change, however, because EHLE will become a full-blown IFR airfield in the near future.
In total, I have trained for 40,5 hours (11 hours in the FNPTII, the other hours in a PA28) before going for the skill test, which took me approx. 8 months in total. The training itself was intensive, but I really enjoyed every part and it definitely improved my flying skills. For practising holds and intercepts, I trained myself using the VOR tracker app on my phone, which really helped. It’s a waste of time and money to try to learn and understand these things in the air, in my opinion.
I was lucky to have nice weather on the day of the skill test. We did several NDB and VOR interceptions, a hold, a VOR approach, ILS approach, stalls, limited panel with unusual attitudes etc.
The next step will be to find a suitable plane to go flying IFR for real in Europe, and to discover how it is to fly IFR for real in Europe… Probably this asks for yet another learning curve…. My last longer flight was VFR from Lelystad to Roskilde (EuroGA meetup) a couple of weeks ago, and I can’t wait to do these kind of trips IFR.
Congrats! I have just started my theory course this week. So much information. I have to do it in through the UK because it’s not offered here. Is it feasible to sit all 7 exams in a single sitting? Obviously I would prefer this because it would save me a trip but I don’t want a situation where I try to remember everything, but end up remembering nothing.
I am just going to do the EIR first I think, and then add on the CBIR later.
zuutroy wrote:
Is it feasible to sit all 7 exams in a single sitting? Obviously I would prefer this because it would save me a trip but I don’t want a situation where I try to remember everything, but end up remembering nothing.
Well, it is probably feasible, but I do think you would do yourselves a favour to split the exams into two sittings.
In my experience, Meteorology, Radio Navigation and Air Law are the heavier ones.
zuutroy wrote:
I am just going to do the EIR first I think, and then add on the CBIR later.
That’s perfectly ok, might save you some ATO hours in the end.
Great report, HFL – thank you. 40hrs and 8 months… shows this IR stuff is not entirely trivial 
Doing IFR flights with an experienced pilot is the only way to learn the operational side. The European IR theory is mostly useless for that.
Is it feasible to sit all 7 exams in a single sitting?
Having done more or less these 7 exams in 2011 I think you would need a superhuman memory to pull that off i.e. to sit all 7 in one day – even if you could find an exam centre open for enough hours in one day.
Well, “anyone” could do it but instead of banging the computer question banks for say a month or two (cumulative time, of evenings) they would be banging them for 6 months in order to retain the sheer volume of irrelevant crap which is in there, and it would be really inefficient.
I do know quite a number of people who did the 7 exams in two sittings, with a number of days in between allowing for more revision in the gap.
I did those 7 in one day a couple of years back and didn’t find it too bad. Would do it again instead of two sessions. Most of this stuff is multiple choice which means pattern recognition instead of understanding.
Quite a few of them are false or without any practical use anyway …
Thanks for the advice. Once I’ve read through all the material once and done some question bank stuff I should be able to gauge how feasible it is for me.
Just thinking of a potential snag…If I pass the exams and get the EIR, then I want to upgrade it to the CBIR, is the 36 month validity of the theory exams still a concern when I go to do the upgrade? I don’t want to fly EIR for 3-4 years and then have to do the theory again to get the CBIR. I haven’t seen that addressed anywhere.
