Takeoff incident

To what_next’s point though when facing a strong crosswind it is easy to forget to straighten the rudder that you have been using to track the centreline after rotation.

Crosswind Takeoff Roll
The technique used during the initial takeoff roll in a crosswind is generally the same as used in a normal takeoff, except that the aileron control must be held INTO the crosswind. This raises the aileron on the upwind wing to impose a downward force on the wing to counteract the lifting force of the crosswind, and prevents that wing from rising.

As the airplane is taxied into takeoff position, it is essential that the windsock and other wind direction indicators be checked so that the presence of a crosswind may be recognized and anticipated. If a crosswind is indicated, FULL aileron should be held into the wind as the takeoff roll is started. This control position should be maintained while the airplane is accelerating until the ailerons start becoming sufficiently effective for maneuvering the airplane about its longitudinal axis. While keeping the wings level with the aileron control, the takeoff path must be held straight with the rudder (Fig. 8-2). Normally, this will require applying downwind rudder pressure, since on the ground the airplane (especially the tailwheel type) will tend to weathervane into the wind. When takeoff power is applied, torque or P-factor which yaws the airplane to the left, may be sufficient to counteract the weathervaning tendency caused by a crosswind from the right. On the other hand, it may also aggravate the tendency to swerve left when the wind is from the left. In any case, whatever rudder pressure is required to keep the airplane rolling straight down the runway should be applied. As the forward speed of the airplane increases and the crosswind becomes more and more of a relative headwind, the mechanical holding of full aileron into the wind should be reduced. It is when increasing pressure is being felt on the aileron control that the ailerons are becoming more effective. As the aileron’s effectiveness increases and the crosswind component of the relative wind becomes less effective, it will be necessary to reduce the aileron pressure gradually to keep the wings level. The crosswind component effect does not completely vanish, so some aileron pressure will have to be maintained throughout the takeoff roll to keep the crosswind from raising the upwind wing. The use of proper aileron pressure then, is simply to keep this from happening. If the upwind wing rises, thus exposing more surface to the crosswind, a “skipping” action may result (Fig. 8-3). This is usually indicated by a series of very small bounces, caused by the airplane attempting to fly and then settling back onto the runway. During these bounces, the crosswind also tends to move the airplane sideways, and these bounces will develop into side skipping. This side skipping imposes severe side stresses on the landing gear and could result in structural failure. It is important then, during the crosswind takeoff roll, to hold sufficient aileron into the wind not only to keep the upwind wing from rising but to hold that wing down so that the airplane will, immediately after liftoff, be slipping into the wind enough to counteract drift.

To what_next’s point though when facing a strong crosswind it is easy to forget to straighten the rudder that you have been using to track the centreline after rotation.

When I was learning to fly in a 65 HP plane with a very powerful, light rudder, this was a definite issue. It took me a while to learn to let the plane ‘pop’ into a crab if required by a crosswind, just after takeoff. Unless doing that, slipping was just as good at going down as it is when landing. My instructor used to yell at me about this, “where’s the ball, do you want to go up or not” etc and I can still hear him just after takeoff in any plane.

A friend in the same kind of plane (not mine) apparently got stuck in some kind of downdraft on takeoff, and ended up pancaking into the grass just past the end of the runway, breaking the main gear in doing so. The story sounded a bit funny to me but funny things do happen.

Brilliant description, Beechbaby.

As the aileron’s effectiveness increases and the crosswind component of the relative wind becomes less effective, it will be necessary to reduce the aileron pressure gradually to keep the wings level

is really important.

A normal take-off (vs. short field t.o.) in all PA-28 types is without flaps. I have flown (my) PA-28 Warrior for 19 years and only if I had a really short runway I would take off with 10 flaps, do an inital climb with Vx and then proceed with Vy after flap retraction. with no flaps it would have climbed better, at least that’s my experience.
The crosswind (IMHO) shoudk not be the limiting factor here. Ailerons into the wind, reduce progressively. After the wheels leave the ground the plane will simply turn into the wind, but i don’t see why that should have a big influence on the climb rate.

In my humble opinion I think that perhaps, from the data you provided with regards to wind conditions, the tower, and yourself, may have made an error in judging the situation. It’s easily done and I’ll be the first to admit to simple errors every now and then.

You state the winds were 210/14 and that you were offered RWY 21 or 10 for takeoff. It would have made more sense to offer Rwy 21 or 28. Although it may sound slight, your tailwind component would be close to 5 knots for Rwy 10. (Sin 20 => 0,34 * 14 kts = 4,8 kts)
Given the position of the airfield in relation to the sea, and the winds at the time, chances are that the wind direction was not 210 during your takeoff but some higher angle, and that the wind was not “just” 14 knots but perhaps closer to 20. It could still be within the gust limits. You were at close to max t-o mass and the temperature was well above ISA.

I’m sure most of us have heard the old saying “learn to love left crosswind” at some point in time and it relates to these kinds of situations among others. You all know how winds behave when they increase in strength and/or altitude, so I’ll not try and sound like the expert but in any situation where the wind is relatively substantial, 15 kts or more, it usually helps to apply this rule.

Just my 2 cents.

I’ve been thinking about this this afternoon, and have come to a similar conclusion to Krister_L.

I don’t buy the cross control explanation for two reasons:
1. I’m not convinced that the performance difference is enough to stop a climb. I don’t think it’s really noticeable.
2. Much more importantly, if you have full into wind aileron and use rudder to keep you straight on the runway, and don’t relax that after takeoff, then you’ll immediately start to bank into wind. This will get your attention and naturally you’ll release the aileron to stop the turn. The only other way to stop the turn would be to increase the rudder input significantly; but that is totally unnatural, and would require a lot of self discipline. I just don’t think you could do that without knowing it and conscientiously intending to do it.

What I think happened is this:

You took off on Runway 10, with wind at 210. This is a slight tail wind, but nothing significant.

However once you attempted to lift out of ground effect two things start to bite you.
1. The wind strength will pick up significantly once it leaves ground effect. This can be quite a substantial change in the first 50 feet as the air ‘loses contact’ with the ground and obstacles and is free to flow.
2. The wind direction veers. A veering wind in this case will increase the tail wind component.

So your slight tail wind, turns to be come a more significant tail wind, and at the same time increases in strength. You were insulated from this in ground effect, but once you tried to climb out of it, the two of these conspired against you.

It never occurred to me before (perhaps a major omission from my training) but it would seem that given a choice, you’re better off selecting a cross wind from the left (which will turn into a strengthening head wind as you climb) rather than one from the right (which will turn into a strengthening tail wind as you climb).

Colm

By any chance did you use a GPS system with good quality (1 second or better) breadcrumb logging? The speeds recorded might help identify the issue, by comparing ground speed with what you remember of the IAS.

Krister_L wrote:

I’m sure most of us have heard the old saying “learn to love left crosswind” at some point in time

I must humbly admit I never heard this rule (or “wisdom” ?) – I was taught to turn the stick into the wind, if any from across, the further for the stronger wind, and to keep on the centre line with rudder, exactly as reported before. And experience soon taught me to get all controls to neutral as soon as possible, increasing speed would help a lot there. Still using rudder to keep direction, aileron to remain more or less horizontal. Looking down the wing towards the horizon over my left shoulder, if ever in doubt.

Of course that is speaking from a low performance plane with relatively good crosswind performance – life has never been hard on me, as a pilot, which is perhaps why I adore piloting ;)

But you did get me curious – why should a pilot love any crosswind at all, and why should left crosswind be more adorable than right crosswind?

But you did get me curious – why should a pilot love any crosswind at all, and why should left crosswind be more adorable than right crosswind?

No need to love crosswind, but as a pilot it is good practice to chose it from the left. The reason goes back to wind theory. When wind speed increases it rotates to a higher value (direction) due to centrifugal force iirc. So, If it originates from a 90 left crosswind, gusts will turn it into a headwind/crosswind. If it comes from the right you get an increase in tailwind as it picks up – not a desirable condition. There may be local variations due to geographic reasons but this is the general behavior.