Controlled airspace where VFR should be allowed but isn't

Peter wrote:

Swiss ban on VFR in its Class C – unofficial AFAIK until you try to fly there

Did you try to ask for a clearance? ;-)
Seriously: From my experience you’ll almost always get cleared to cross Zürich TMA (as an example) without any problems.

Bristol NATS Delta (goes up to FL200)

Thomas_R wrote:

Seriously: From my experience you’ll almost always get cleared to cross Zürich TMA (as an example) without any problems.

Please send us some reports of such occurrences (where and when). I’ve always been refused to enter Geneva or Zurich TMA so far, no matter how I asked so far, except for the published VFR routes at FL100 through the Geneva TMA. I do know some success stories from colleagues, how flew through the Zurich TMA during the night (NVFR) or during the first (hard) Covid-lockdown, but that’s not for daily use. Even when talking to Alps Radar, they do send you down from the general class C below the TMA. No chance to get a TMA clearance on normal days, even when you get a clearance into general class C.

I would say, the Swiss class C airspace is even more restricted, compared to the Milano class A airspace, where I got a VFR clearance twice. Also clearances into the general class C airspace in Switzerland are extremely restricted during military operational hours, see also Peter’s video when he canceled IFR at FL160 or so, in order to do some orbits around the Eiger and Jungfrau.

Same counts also more or less for the class C Munich and Frankfurt TMA in Germany. No chance to get a clearance on normal days. The Germans do accept you above FL140 or so, while passing Frankfurt or Munich, but that does require a suitable airplane and oxygen. Other German class C TMAs are however no big deal, like Köln/Bonn. It always depends on the traffic of course.

Frans wrote:

Same counts also more or less for the class C Munich and Frankfurt TMA in Germany

I’ve crossed Munich several times already VFR in Airspace C. Even in Microlights No problem. I noticed however that the rate of success is a lot higher when I filed a VFR flight plan where I indicated the route I want to fly. I had anything in between FL60 and FL100. Asked on FIS frequency for coordination and I’d say 4 out of 5 got a go. I don’t know how the current situation is after the new airspace coordination software got online maybe 4 to 8 weeks ago. I was told that they’d be far more restrictive now regarding VFR in C, regardless whether below or above FL100 – due to staff shortage. However, so far, I mostly got what I politely asked for.

Regarding Frankfurt airspace C it depends. In general it’s a lot more strict than Munich or others, however, again, I had my share of flights therein. Maybe I’m just lucky, but the Flight Information Service really tries to help coordinate something. And apologize if it’s not possible. (and by the way do assist if you’re about to possible enter unintentionally)

Barcelona TMA, particularly over the sea. Class D starts at 2000 or 3500 ft. The chart indicates a ‘VFR sector’ from AGL/AMSL upto the base of Class D. However, you do regularly get clearance for that class D, depending on which rwy is in use at LEBL.

I had anything in between FL60 and FL100

There is no reason why ATC can’t offer VFR clearance at those levels in Charlie? especially, if they can vector VFR & IFR well above transition altitudes and usually away SID/STAR platform, there is lot of room…

It’s VFR transits under 3000ft agl that are tricky, as start they need to hand you to tower if you are “blocking” the runway during the VFR transit

Frans wrote:

Please send us some reports of such occurrences (where and when)

Last Monday, Swiss General Class C at FL150 between Mollis LSZM and the Matterhorn. Both on outbound and return leg.

tschnell wrote:

Last Monday, Swiss General Class C at FL150 between Mollis LSZM and the Matterhorn. Both on outbound and return leg.

That’s not the Zurich TMA… General class C is indeed not a problem, as mentioned in my post as well.

Peter wrote:

Stockholm Syndrome?

Could be the case. If you look on Instagram for example, quite a few pilots seem to have a kind of Stockholm syndrome in their relationship with ATC. They’re often screaming like “Thanks to the Air Traffic Controllers of @ … for making this possible!!!!” , for actually pretty simple things, like a CTR crossing.