During my last trip, I flew an IFR arrival into LIMP (Parme, Italy).
I was cleared direct to OSBUL, 6000ft, then, overhead of the airport, was cleared for LUPOS4B arrival and transferred to Parma Approach.
I had expected radar vectoring, but they didn’t have coverage, as I would be confirmed few minutes later.
Now, it’s getting pretty interesting, as I tried to configure the instruments to perform the STAR:
- LUPOS4B Star was not in the GPS database of the G1000 (I double checked, and would be pleased if one of you could check on its side)
- TZO VOR was out of service, so couldn’t be use to fly the outbound leg from OSBUL
- IPR DME worked (ouf !)
- I had no VOR to fly the DME arc, only IPR ILS, but wasn’t taught it should be done that way. So reaching 8.3nm (9 – anticipation) R-322 outbound from OSBUL, I turned right to 060°, then performed an “estimated” arc, monitoring the DME distance
- BSA VOR was functionning so could figure MP407
- Somewhere between MP MP407 and MP408, the controller asked to “report position”, so had absolutely no radar coverage
In the end, all went great, and weather was good enough to handle what surprised me.
I really didn’t understand why I didn’t found the RNAV STAR in the (up-to-date) Jeppesen Database.
I wonder if you check, pre-flight, which STAR/SID/APP are actually coded in the database ?
I didn’t think about setting manually the GPS points, and preferred to perform conventional… But the configuration didn’t seem optimal.
Besides, LIMP was a hassle free airport, with rather low cost fees (ca. 40€ for landing + 3 nights), but with no AVGAS. Great persons there.
And Parma is wonderful !
Why didn’t you cancel IFR or requested a visual approach? A lot of flying around in VMC… 
There was no real point in flying that procedure because it relies on a non working navaid and therefore it was actually not available.
I wonder what they mean by “conventional”. Only thing that makes sense to me would be “basic RNAV” iso “P-RNAV”. How could you fly that 9 dme arc by radionav ? I see a VOR on the airfield, but no frequency ?
achimha wrote:
Why didn’t you cancel IFR or requested a visual approach? A lot of flying around in VMC…
That’s a good (and a bit embarrassing) question
For a bit of context, I was flying from LIPV, and transformed IFR during the flight.
The weather improved en route, but I had no information at destination (ATC would not provide), and considering promity of terrain at LIMP (= eventually more clouds), I thought I should wait before cancelling.
When I arrived at 6000ft overhead of terrain, it was not as glorious as it seems on the photo. I don’t mean it was bad weather, but hazy, reported vis 5000, some sct cumulus north of the field, and I wasn’t able to spot visually the terrain.
Of course, I could have descended in visual condition, spotted the terrain later, and landed visually in the end. But I should better have taken this decision few miles before, and starts the descent, which I didn’t do. At last, 6000 overhead of the airfield, I thought flying the IFR approach was the better thing to do.
But not easy :-)
Anyway, aren’t we learning from what we didn’t do in the best way ? 
achimha wrote:
There was no real point in flying that procedure because it relies on a non working navaid and therefore it was actually not available
That was not the point of view of ATC, who cleared me for LUPOS4B.
airways wrote:
How could you fly that 9 dme arc by radionav ? I see a VOR on the airfield, but no frequency ?
I just see the ILS at LIMP, no VOR.
Is an ILS good to fly a DME Arc with the HSI ?
Actually, I also (re)discovered that, in the G1000, an ILS input could not feed the RMI needles (single BRG1 and double BRG2)
The only thing wrong with flying that arrival is the lack of information regarding MP406. There are lots of ILS DMEs where the DME is omni-directional and used for other reasons.
I’ll check our G1000 database this evening and get back to you.
Hello!
PetitCessnaVoyageur wrote:
LUPOS4B Star was not in the GPS database of the G1000 (I double checked, and would be pleased if one of you could check on its side)
Stupid question: Is your G1000 WAAS capable? Allegedly there are older units which are not. I had a look at the pictures on your website but my G1000 experience is insufficient to tell the difference… If it is not WAAS capable then it will not show P-RNAV procedures as the one you were supposed to fly!
And regarding on how to fly the procedure conventionally (or rather “semi-conventionally” because of the non-operational TZO-VOR). I would do it like this – and would also have to because “my” plane is not P-RNAV capable in real life (but on paper it is and so we also fly this kind of procedure – at least until we get caught):
1. Set up IPR (ILS-DME) on NAV1. By that you can fly your DME-Arc and your ILS.
2. Put the points LUPOS OSBUL and TZO in your flight plan. (*)
3. Set up BSA on NAV2 and dial in radial 179 (this will designate the end of your Arc)
Once past OSBUL, descend to 5000ft, watch the GPS distance remaining to TZO. At 48 miles, commence descent to 3000ft, turn right and join your 9NM DME Arc until reaching the radial on NAV2, commence descent to 2000ft, switch your HSI to NAV1 (GPS frequency is already set) dial in the final course and intercept the localiser. Descend accoring to the IPR distances printed on the chart.
( * ) Instead of entering the waypoint sequence you could as well go Direct TZO and use OBS mode (or Pseudo VOR as it is called in other installations) and select 322 as “radial” to follow. Or, if you are a real masochist, intercept and track QDM 322 inbound to TZO NDB
PetitCessnaVoyageur wrote:
Is an ILS good to fly a DME Arc with the HSI ?
Actually, I also (re)discovered that, in the G1000, an ILS input could not feed the RMI needles (single BRG1 and double BRG2)
An ILS cannot feed an RMI needle. The way the ILS localiser works is completely different from the way the VOR signal works. Only the latter can give you proper bearing information.
DME arcs can be flown on any DME. A bearing pointer on the HSI helps, but is not required.
It is actually a bit easier to fly an arc with precision on a classic DME instrument with ground speed read-out, since you can track it by keeping ground speed at zero. But given the +- 2.5 miles protected area around the nominal arc, this is hardly an issue.
Cobalt wrote:
DME arcs can be flown on any DME. A bearing pointer on the HSI helps, but is not required.
I have never used anything but the DME readout itself to fly a DME arc. Nor have I been taught to nor have I taught anybody… The method you mention of keeping the groundspeed as close to zero as possible makes it really easy though.
Dave_Phillips wrote:
I’ll check our G1000 database this evening and get back to you.
Would be pleased !
what_next wrote:
Stupid question: Is your G1000 WAAS capable?
It is not. This is a non-WAAS installation I have.
But, I am not sure if it can explain why I could not call the STAR, which can be flown conventionnaly or P-RNAV.
Besides, I can load LNAV approaches, but will not get the vertical guidance (+V or LPV).
Dave_Phillips input may clarify this point.
I flew the way you said, except I chose the NDB , and used the DME distance to enter the DME arc (9nm minus anticipation = 8.3)
BSA on NAV2 let me know the end of the arc.
Where I didn’t feel proficient, is flying the arc with DME only, as I used to fly it with RMI (keeping 90° relative bearing), or eventually with HSI (10° by 10°) (ADD: this is how I was taught !)
Cobalt wrote:
An ILS cannot feed an RMI needle. The way the ILS localiser works is completely different from the way the VOR signal works.
This is how real life catch up theory.
Thanks for your confirmation.
Cobalt wrote:
But given the +- 2.5 miles protected area around the nominal arc, this is hardly an issue.
Is that always true ?
I flew between 8.2 and 9.1, and as Achimha said, in good weather
what_next wrote:
If it is not WAAS capable then it will not show P-RNAV procedures as the one you were supposed to fly!
Are you sure about this?
When flying to Bergamo LIME, I always get ELTAR 1W arrival which is also marked at Jepp plates as Conventional / P-RNAV and it exists in my G1000 (non-WAAS)database.
