alioth wrote:
Surely the simple solution is to just allow them to be class E airspace. It’s not rocket science.
Control zones are not permitted to be class E.
Timothy wrote:
Thus anything purportedly provided by ATS in Class G cannot be an air traffic service and is not actually ATC by definition.
But that is not at all what ATS.TR.110 says! To put it another way, it says that whenever there is a CTA, CTR or controlled aerodrome, there shall be an ATC unit. (My italics.) It does not say that there has to be a CTR when there is an ATC unit. In fact enroute ATC units typically do not provide services within control zones at all!
In fact, if the meaning is as you suggest, then there wouldn’t be any point in including the part I’ve written in italics! That part is necessary exactly because there are controlled airports without control zones!
As far as I can see, the proposed regulation doesn’t say anything at all about airspace design.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Control zones are not permitted to be class E.
But (IIRC) the IAP doesn’t have to be in a control zone merely controlled airspace. And if not, change the rule so it can be in class E. It works in the USA, this is hardly going off into uncharted territory.
alioth wrote:
But (IIRC) the IAP doesn’t have to be in a control zone merely controlled airspace. And if not, change the rule so it can be in class E. It works in the USA, this is hardly going off into uncharted territory.
The lower limit of a control area can’t be lower than 700’ AGL, so if you want to protect the whole of the IAP you need a control zone.
Does the USA really have class E control zones?
The situation is messy as it is, it shouldn’t be made worse by making ad hoc changes to well established international rules.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The lower limit of a control area can’t be lower than 700’ AGL, so if you want to protect the whole of the IAP you need a control zone.
Nope, you only need a Class E surface extension. This is how it works in the US. Just go on Skyvector and pull up any Sectional chart and you’ll see them right there. As an aside, there are plenty of airports in the US that have an IAP but neither a tower nor the Class E extension. IOW the airport itself is in Class G. In fact, my home base KSMO becomes just that outside the tower ops hours.
That’s the thing.
As it’s written now, it doesn’t work for the UK’s way of doing things – ATC in Class G.
So, either the UK has to change the way it does things (removing rule 183 and demoting hundreds of ATCOs to FISO, or introducing masses of Class D) or the new regs have to be changed (which would have been OK, but for the B word.)
That’s my (now laboured) point.
Timothy wrote:
As it’s written now, it doesn’t work for the UK’s way of doing things – ATC in Class G.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear, Timothy – there is no ATC at KSMO when it becomes Class G (between 2100 and 0700L). There are other airports, Big Bear (L35) being on of them, that are Class G permanently, have no tower (there is no such thing as a FISO in the US), but have IAPs.
Timothy wrote:
That’s my (now laboured) point.
Yes, but you still haven’t pointed to a (proposed) EASA reg that will make this change necessary. I don’t say there isn’t any, but the part-ATS paragraphs you quoted don’t say that.
Sorry, @172Driver, we crossed. I was responding to @Airborne_Again’s comment about changing international laws to suit ourselves.
I know that in all sensible countries, IAPs are permitted without ATC. I fly them all the time in Europe and, occasionally, the States.
The UK has very special rules and laws which, like driving on the wrong side of the road, we are just stuck with, because of a mixture of cost and reactionary conservatives.
In some ways (the IMCR/IR(R), and IFR with no plan and no clearance, for example) it makes life very pleasant. In others (completely disjoint ATC, all privately operated by different agencies; uncurated lower airspace with no central architecture and planning) it is a terrible mess.
172driver wrote:
Nope, you only need a Class E surface extension.
By definition, a control zone is controlled airspace that extends from the ground up.
