FPLs in Greece,even for touch n go’s into the traffic pattern.Welcome.
MedFlyer wrote:
FPLs in Greece,even for touch n go’s into the traffic pattern.Welcome.
Yes, no doubt about Greece. It is very clear from AIP-Greece. Do you know if there is a rationale for that? (And for banning VFR outside the lateral limits of controlled airspace?)
Yeah, they prefer a known traffic environment. Search youtube for
greek turkish f16 dogfight
Concerning the traffic pattern FPL, this is due to bureaucratic inertia and fear of taking initiatives.Concerning the little open VFR space,here we have the question of Turkish vs Greek SARs.Just read a daily row of LGGG notams ,and you get the point.Concerning the airways,under the airways obligation etc and the vast water distances…well ,self explanatory.
MedFlyer wrote:
Concerning the airways,under the airways obligation etc and the vast water distances…well ,self explanatory.
I’m sorry, no it isn’t.
Silvaire wrote:
I’m discussing what can be in Europe to eliminate irrational obstacles to GA flying
An obstacle to one person is not even a remote problem to another person, given the same situation. Most “obstacles” are irrational, in the sense that people are used to doing things one particular way, and can’t be bothered doing things differently, even if the “new way” is simpler. I saw this in all it’s glory during the military exercise a few weeks back when the ATC required everyone to actually file a FP through IPPC. Some just went home again in slight disbelief/anger, after moaning and whining a lot. Others just filed it (takes 30 seconds max, 10 if you have the plan ready as a template) and went flying. It is no problem. ENVA is in C in any case, and some sort of shortened FP is required anyway. It’s usually done on the radio, or a phone to the tower up front. This time it was different, and IMO, much simpler as I’m used to IPPC to file FPs in any case.
Regarding talking to ATC “for no good reason”. I have seen and heard people (foreigners mostly, but some native also) being surprised and irritated by Norwegian ATC giving them instructions and asking for positional reports etc when they are flying VFR in G. For me, PPL before airspaces, this is business as usual, but I hear and read about the time before radio at all, which isn’t that long ago. Anyway, I never thought about ATC (information) as an obstacle of any kind at all. it is very nice to know someone are observing and actively taking interest in my well being when weather conditions start to deteriorate, which can happen at any time from clear blue sky here up north. Still it’s no requirement, and never has been. You can perfectly well fly with no radio at all.
The main issue is that to think about Europe as a place for common rules, regulations, culture, language as in one country is down right stupid. There are patches where things are similar, other patches where there are war like or cold-war like conditions. Lots of political and military tension that doesn’t exist anywhere in the US. Precautions are taken, and if they ends out to be over reactions or too little reaction are only seen in hindsight. But irrational? if you really mean that, then you have no idea.
LeSving wrote:
The main issue is that to think about Europe as a place for common rules, regulations, culture, language as in one country is down right stupid
That appears to be your main issue, yes, but Its one you’ve introduced into a largely unrelated discussion. For people who aren’t so much homebodies it is not intimidating to focus and address practical issues, versus soliciting a discussion on the next 500 years in Europe.
Silvaire wrote:
1) I’m discussing what can be in Europe to eliminate irrational obstacles to GA flying.
…
2) A number of countries in Europe require flight plans for domestic GA flights.
I flew with a friend of mine in the USA in a pretty busy airspace and it was a miserable experience – high stress levels from constantly looking out of the windows for traffic etc. It could be that it’s different in less busy areas but such level of stress is not my cup of tea.
Looking at Europe (Balkans) filing of a flight plan should be at least 30 minutes prior to departure, you can do it over the email or app or just by calling up your local ARO while on your way to the airport. Anyway by the time to get to the airport and prepare your aircraft for flight those 30 minutes will go by. I have also never had an issue with filing a flight plan on a shorter notice than 30 minutes. I’ve even done it from inside of a plane with engine running upon finding out that my plan did not go trough (they claimed it never reached them), and by the time I taxied and did runup I was good to go.. So in that way ARO/ATC are very accommodating.
Now, we come to the point of safety. Once I file a flight plan and get talking with ATC:- I did not had to go trough NOTAM’s, restricted areas etc. someone else did that for me if my plan got approved
- If weather en route is less than perfect and I wasn’t aware of that ATC would let me know and offer suggestions
- I don’t have to worry about traffic at all, just concentrate of the flight itself and ATC will let me know if there is anything to look out for
- In case that something bad does happen, rescue will have a general idea where to look for you (eg. not ending up like Steve Fossett)
If you ask me that is a pretty good deal in exchange for a short phone call 30 mins prior to flight.
- I did not had to go trough NOTAM’s, restricted areas etc. someone else did that for me if my plan got approved
- If weather en route is less than perfect and I wasn’t aware of that ATC would let me know and offer suggestions
- I don’t have to worry about traffic at all, just concentrate of the flight itself and ATC will let me know if there is anything to look out for
All of those 3 points are most unusual for Europe. I wonder which ATC / flight briefing service in the Balkans does that? That’s pretty good.
On a Eurocontrol IFR flight, #1 and #3 are implicit (via route validation, and being in CAS, respectively) but that’s it, and for VFR one normally gets nothing at all. Also airport notams are mostly disregarded in the IFR validation process.
dvukovic wrote:
Once I file a flight plan and get talking with ATC:
Doing that does not at all mean you can forget preparing your flight.
dvukovic wrote:
- I did not had to go trough NOTAM’s, restricted areas etc. someone else did that for me if my plan got approved
No. It will not give you any guarantee that there are no restrictions on your route, even though some restrictions will (IFR) have been integrated with IFPS and the route segments blocked, but certainly on a VFR flight plan, nobody “checks” your route normally (I know that there are exceptions to that, I got a VFR flight plan handed back to me heavily modified in Bulgaria for VFR routes at the time nobody knew about). It is YOUR responsibility to know about what those NOTAMS say. ATC will help sometimes with avoiding this, but not as a rule.
dvukovic wrote:
- If weather en route is less than perfect and I wasn’t aware of that ATC would let me know and offer suggestions
My own experience with ATC in the Balkans is that they are excellent but warning you of weather is not their job. They will do it if they have the ressources, but heavens, this does not mean you don’t have to check the weather. YOU are responsible for knowing what to expect en route and even more so how to deal with it.
dvukovic wrote:
- I don’t have to worry about traffic at all, just concentrate of the flight itself and ATC will let me know if there is anything to look out for
As a general answer: This is a very dangerous perception. And it depends strongly on airspace.
VFR in any case you are responsible for looking out and avoiding traffic. ATC (or FIS) MAY give you traffic information if they get to it, but they do NOT do separation.
IFR they will separate IFR/IFR Traffic and they will separate VFR and IFR in Class B or C Airspace. They will NOT separate IFR from VFR traffic in Class D (even though they will be on the lookout for conflicts as far as possible) and they will not separate you from VFR traffic in class E and they won’t separate anything in Class G.
Traffic avoidance is YOUR responsibility first and foremost.
dvukovic wrote:
- In case that something bad does happen, rescue will have a general idea where to look for you (eg. not ending up like Steve Fossett)
This on the other hand is true and the main reason filing flight plans even when not necessary can actually safe your life.
