Hi Prho,
at EDMS ALL IFR operations are suspended until March. It’s really a scandal and the airport is trying its best to get back to normal IFR procedures but somebody at DFS must have slept and they simply never got their act together … For now: NO IFR flying to/from EDMS. Of courye you can always do a Y/Z flight plan, but that doesn’t help much with a ceiling of 100 ft … because you can never get out of there legally
That’s amazing to suspend all IFR ops because of an approach calibration. I really cannot comprehend how that would have any effect what so ever on a clearance such as “Cleared to depart IFR climbing straight ahead climbing to altitude 4000ft” or similar.
When all IFR operations are suspended then nobody can give you an IFR clearance! It is not an IFR airport at the moment. NOBODY can really comprehend why the DFS did that, but I think they will have to think this over …
I would not take of in this conditions, I have no cute and no chance with a forced landing. How is the weather is a diffrent story, how knows how much the pilot can see at the runway? Maybe you see a hole and the guyes in the tower or on the apron didn´t see it, should be not your problem. When sombody calls the LBA then a weather survey must made, because nobody can see from an other position your weather (even the person is not qualified). This survey guy has no data from the field, only from different places around, can he really sure what weather was at your runway 25NM away from the next Station at 15.12.13 at 12:31 UTC? No he can´t, It should be, is the best he can say and I think no court call you gulity for this.
I would not take of in this conditions, I have no cute and no chance with a forced landing.
Me neither, my personal minimum for flying single engine aircraft is 1000ft clear air between the ground and the lowest overcast. But we’ve had a separate thread about that some time ago.
Alexis,
Germany is not exactly as bad as you think :-)
In the face of what they are doing in Straubing with the IFR procedures right now, that is an interesting statement.
It is really the responsibility of the pilot and HE decides if the VFR criteria are met or not. And as long as the airport is VFR operation only they will not interfere.
If you take off in these conditions (which are CLEARLY not VMC), it is clearly illegal. If the good folks at Straubing don’t wanna know, and you post it here, chances are that they will get a friendly visit from one of the powers that are and in the future they WILL have to know and put their collective feet down. As said, there are enough cases known in Germany where people got reported to the LBA for similar take offs and none of them had a very pleasant experience thereafter.
The other aspect is insurance. IF something happens, even if it is totally unrelated to the IMC, your insurance will refuse payment if the subsequent report indicates you have been operating in illegal conditions. That alone would keep me from taking ANY chances in such cases.
No no, just a fine (after all, it is an “Ordnungswidrigkeit” (?) and not a “Straftat” (criminal offense / felony)). 500 Euros IIRC plus his lawyer plus court fees, so almost 2000 Euros in the end.
Quite enough. Plus of course the LBA has the name in their files and in case of something else happening…
I started flying in 1993 and until today I i have … NEVER had and kind of ramp check ore similar
I’ve had several of variable severity. Worst was a customs check in Mengen which took apart the whole airplane plus baggage taking almost 1 hour. Only reason seems to have been that the guys were not too happy to be dragged to the airport for a VFR arrival.
Actually Germany is not the “police state” the Brits want us to be ;-))
Maybe you are just so used to it you don’t notice it anymore? Seeing what I do see and hear would make me think otherwise. Whereby it has to be said that the worst are not the police themselfs but rather the “concerned” citizens of all kinds who will drag anyone off to court or into trouble if they can find a reason.
In Straubing RVR is not measured –
You don’t really need electronic equipment to measure RVR, you can also have someone check the runway and report it in, eg by counting lights. That is the backup procedure (one of them) all big airports have in case the equipment goes down.
Piroh
. “Cleared to depart IFR climbing straight ahead climbing to altitude 4000ft”
Not possible.
In Germany, places which do not have IFR also don’t have the airspace with it. Straubing has a class F airspace which can be activated while there is IFR operation. As their IFR ops seems to have been suspended, so is the airspace which goes with it. Consequently, Straubing is in airspace G and no IFR is allowed in airspace G in Germany.
However, a clearance like you suggest would be unlikely even with full IFR ops in place, as there are SID’s in place and all IFR ops go along SID’s and STAR’s here. The usual radar vectoring departures done in the US are not common at all here.
Björn,
When sombody calls the LBA then a weather survey must made, because nobody can see from an other position your weather (even the person is not qualified). This survey guy has no data from the field, only from different places around, can he really sure what weather was at your runway 25NM away from the next Station at 15.12.13 at 12:31 UTC? No he can´t, It should be, is the best he can say and I think no court call you gulity for this.
I would not bet your odds for a non conviction. The LBA has withnesses, starting with the guy who reported you, and courts generally do not know anything about flying. All they see is one of those “hazardeur” private pilots who are accused by a person of authority. I’d say a conviction in such a case is almost guaranteed.
I don’t know if Straubing releases Metars (not at work so I can’t really check easily) but if they do, then this will be what will be taken into account. In which case, there will be two people in possible trouble: First and foremost the pilot, who has operated in conditions described in the METAR as IMC. Secondly the issuer of the METAR if the pilot manages to convince the board of inquiry that it WAS VMC (which is very unlikely but let’s suppose such a thing were possible) could get in trouble for not adequately monitoring the weather and issue a special update, once prescribed values are obviously passed.
Generally: No, of course I would not take off unless the weather is CLEARLY above the legal limits, that is either there is a METAR which sais so or it is totally undoubtable to the observers at the airport. No, I would not even start to discuss with a tower or info along the lines “I am about to take off in this, are you going to report me?” because this puts them in a VERY difficult situation. And no, I would certainly not start talking about something I might have done in a public forum. All it takes is ONE forward of this thread to the authorities and consequences are perfectly clear to follow.
The other bit is the totally stupid suspension of IFR ops. This should result in a report and possible court case for damages and loss of business. Also the LBA needs to learn that such banters can not possibly happen without consequences! Otherwise, they will again and again. To close down IFR ops for such reasons is totally unwarranted if the facts are as they are presented here.
MooneyDriver,
sorry, but most of what you wrote is wrong.
FIRST of all, I did not say or write that I took off. I was only asking if YOU would do it.
INSURANCE: wrong. The accident has to be related to the illegal activity or the negligence. There have been enough examples for this and I actually ASKED my insurance about it when I insured the Cirrus. The accident has to be related to the mistake you made, otherwise they will have to pay and they will.
RVR: no, it is not measured in any way at EDMS, and I asked about it. Nobody checks it and it’s up to the pilot to decide.
POLICE STATE: Completely exaggerated. In my whole life (54 years) I was stopped by police twice, and I was never checked at any airfield or airport in Germany in 1500 hours of flying. Now it’s a fashion to describe Germany as a police state, but it’s clearly not. There’s 10 times as many ramp checks in the US. There’s some truth in the “concerned citizen” aspect, but you have those everywhere. And let me add: I am not the biggest fan of my own country, due to my international background. But this is clearly a stereotype.
LAST not LEAST: The stupid (!) suspension of IFR at EDMS is not very typical for germany either.
If you want to live in a world where hell means “German policemen, British Cooks, Swiss lovers, Greek minister of finance and French Engineers”, go ahead … I don’t like these stereotypes.
BY THE WAY: I remember my last flight to Yverdon and how i had to park the plane isnide a white box which i was not allowed to leave until the customs guy arrived. Took him 30 minutes to come out. And I came from Munich, not from Zimbabwe. Or try a flight to the Bahamas via Fort Pierce and check out how “homeland security” will treat you there. Germany is completely relaxed compared to that. Or try to walk 30 feet to your plane in Gloucester without a stupid vest ;-) Unheard of in Germany.
I did not say or write that I took off. I was only asking if YOU would do it.
I never said you did.
The accident has to be related to the illegal activity or the negligence
If you are willing to bet your money on this, you are perfectly entitled to it. Personally, I would think that if they can prove (or think they can) any sort of misdemeanour on that flight they will try to get out of their comitment.
no, it is not measured in any way at EDMS, and I asked about it
Do they provide METARS? Could not find any, but as an IFR field they should. If they do they need to be trained Aviation Meteorological Observers.
POLICE STATE: Completely exaggerated.
Not a police state. As I said, the worst are not the police, they are as professional as anywhere. The worst are those “concerned citizens” or small “Beamte” who will use their power and run to the police or LBA for anything they deem wrong. We get them here too, only they don’t get very far usually, which seems to be different in Germany. But also that has tradition I suppose. I have read enough such reports in aviation mags to be very careful what I do.
LAST not LEAST: The stupid (!) suspension of IFR at EDMS is not very typical for germany either.
It appears to be a quite new nuance of “Beamtenwahnsinn” indeed. But heavens, there is really ample precedent that the LBA will do such stuff. Ever read other German mags? I have not read the one you wrote for in a while but I read another. And it’s quite enough what is reported in there.
If you want to live in a world where hell means “Swiss lovers”, go ahead … I don’t like these stereotypes.
Neither do I I’ll have to ask my wife if she feels in hell. And there is a huge difference between inconvenient behaviour and hell.
Germany is completely relaxed compared to that.
Really? The same thing happened to me in Speyer. And Mengen. It is the customs procedure.
If I ever read the german mags? ;-))
I am an Aviation journalist for 20 years now. I wrote “them” for 20 years, so I guess I read them too.
I know that ramp checks happen to N-regs sometimes. We know and we discussed the reasons.
About the insurance there’s really nothing to bet on, the case is clear. Just like with cars the negligence or the mistake has to be clearly connected to the accident.
The insurance will also pay for gear up landings (final check completed?) and all similar stuff. They will NOT pay if you flew drunk, of course. If you take off into a think fog layer and have a subsequent engine failure then it depends: If the fog was on the ground and you had no chance to make an emergency landing and you die they might ask questions … of course. If you have an engine failure at 600 feet and come down by parachute (CAPS) they will pay because the POH procedure for engine failure IS CAPS and it is not related to the fog that you “pulled the chute”.
I know of the following cases where the (german) insurance paid for the plane:
- several gear up landings
- take off into the trees with a PA-28, fuel switch in OFF position
- single engine go-around with a Seneca I, ended in the trees aswell
- emergency landing of a flight instructor withstudent 3 minutes after take-off – took off with EMPTY tanks.
Now, would you agree that a flight instructor who takes off with 3 liters of fuel on board acted with GROSS (super gross I would call it) negligence?
Oh, and let me add that the people at DFS are NOT officials. DFS is a privately owned company. The german state is a shareholder, not more.
Landshut, EDML, has customs too. You can leave the plane and walk to the restaurant and have a beer while you wait for the police who do the customs. And many times they will not even drive out to the airport but say “it’s ok” on the phone.
