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Icing (merged threads)

If you sensibly risk manage and avoid flying through likely icing then you shouldn’t really need de icing. Most of the year in Northern Europe the typical FL090-FL160 where you might be flying airways if you are in cloud or visible moisture you will be exposed to icing. In the summer convective cloud the same. An SEP or MEP have limited de icing capability even if FIKI.

If you are flying through a low or front take the airline.

Some flights are accomplished by being on top, and in daylight any ice you picked up in the climb would sublimate. But that implies your climb was through benign conditions and you don’t need to descend through icing conditions. It also implies winter (autumn/spring in northern latitudes) night IFR is a new order of risk.

The most ‘interesting’ icing may actually be in the descent, especially if you are on an extended STAR, so you also need to risk manage your on-top strategy.

Avoiding icing areas on the SigWx, having an MSA outside icing, studying the weather and understanding how to flight plan around icing areas – excess HP, anti ice propeller. These seem to be the way SEP have dealt with the risk.

The AOPA NTSB shows three structural icing accidents for your two types (BE36/33/35, 182) in the last five years, out of eighteen overall (none for the 182). Eight were MEP or SET, including two King Airs and one TBM 700. A loss of control due to AP disconnect in icing by a low time PC12 pilot did not seem to get picked up by the structural icing key word search, so there may be others.

In short understanding weather and ensuring you avoid icing risk is a better investment than thinking FIKI in light GA will improve dispatch rate.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

RobertL18C wrote:

In short understanding weather and ensuring you avoid icing risk is a better investment than thinking FIKI in light GA will improve dispatch rate.

That is certainly true, but once you have achieved the former, you will want additional capabilities to increase your options wrt icing, including excess horsepower (turbo) and some kind of ice protection.

RobertL18C mentioned lengthy STARs, but an additional problem is ATC restrictions where they keep you down at some altitude where there is a risk of icing and won’t let you climb because of traffic above. That is even worse than being kept high on a STAR because the longer you spend in icing, the less likely it is that you will be able to climb – but you will be able to descend (one way or another).

LFPT, LFPN

If you’re not equipped for icing, you don’t plan to fly in icing conditions. This means you can do recreational flying, where place and time are flexible. Then, even when icing is not forecast, it’s still stressful to fly in IMC at near zero temperature. Personally I kept staring at the wing much too often.

Here’s a real life situation:
I was flying in DA40TDI EDNY-EPPO and had IR for only a few months. According to GFS a front was supposed to be about 100km east of my destination and I was coming from the west. In reality it was 100km west of my destination. I saw a big wall of clouds stretching from ground to my level. I had 1 hr of fuel and decided to get in. Zero isotherm was about 2000 feet, I was flying FL110. The moment I touched the cloud tops, the windshield got white and ice started building on the wings. I started descent for landing. Then the controller told me “number three for landing” which is very unusual at my small airport. I thought “@%$#^” and replied “I am picking up ice and I have no de-ice”. I think he picked up tension in my voice, because he asked “do you need priority?”. Answer was “affirm” and I got vector direct to airport while some airliner had to wait a bit.

Looking back, the ice wasn’t actually that bad and there was no speed degradation. Still, it was one of scariest moments in my life.

So, maybe de-icing doesn’t get used that often, but it does make flying less stressful.

Here are some pictures:


LPFR, Poland

If you’re not equipped for icing, you don’t plan to fly in icing conditions. This means you can do recreational flying, where place and time are flexible. Then, even when icing is not forecast, it’s still stressful to fly in IMC at near zero temperature. Personally I kept staring at the wing much too often.

I think there is a good middle position, which is what most IFR flyers operate, whereby you are prepared to enter potentially icing conditions but you have a good escape route. Usually is a descent into warmer air, though powerful aircraft (usually turbo) can go for a climb instead.

Otherwise, you could never enter any IMC below 0C. That was, for a brief period, one of the conditions that required FIKI (a US term, mapping onto US weather services) but it was sensibly removed amid widespread protests – basically it made just about every pilot with an IR a criminal.

I would be much less happy if I didn’t have the TKS de-iced propeller though.

IME, ice does happen almost every time, and this video shows it takes minutes at most


Ideally one would have a camera rigged in the cockpit, looking at the leading edge, and another one looking at the ASI I would get somebody else to do that, anonymously

You can get this in a few mins, and that will slow you down a fair bit:

Yes I hope to be installing the full TKS system this winter. It would enable a climb through say a 10000ft thick layer which, in Europe, is close to 100% certain to ice you up pretty well, even if the ground is at +20C. Such a climb would use up about 10% of the reservoir capacity.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

A couple of things to keep in mind about speed and icing – the speed decay is much more noticeable in the cruise, and more insidious in the descent and approach – unless you are very conscious of the power setting flown, you will compensate for the extra drag with power without much thinking…

For me, de-icing did one thing – I don’t have to faff with all sorts of weather sites, gramets etc.; I can just use the SIGMET chart and then go. This chart does only show moderate icing and above, but not light icing, making it unsuitable for non-deiced flying. Moderate icing deserves respect even in de-iced aircraft…

[it won’t do that for Peter, though, as he avoids flying in IMC for his and passenger comfort]

Biggin Hill

Not as simple…

With full TKS I would do IMC / icing in thick layers (presently will do only thin layers say 2000ft), but I still want to be sure there are no TCU/CBs in there, and the sigmet is no good for that. You still need IR/radar/sferics – just like presently.

Unless you have radar…

If you can be assured of no significant convective activity then IMC will be smooth. And that is where TKS comes in: you can go up and down through it. It won’t do for enroute, due to limited reservoir endurance, and that is one remaining factor which drives a higher operating ceiling (turbo/turboprop/jet).

Edit: There are various angles e.g. if SFC is -10C, base is 5000ft, and the layer is 5000ft-10000ft, then the chances of ice anywhere are really minimal.

However I do have a photo of ice collected wholly at -19C:

But also read thisairframe ice is not your only vulnerability… two engine stoppages! A TB20 engine will stop at -15C in IMC, always, after about 10 mins, unless you use prop TKS or (POH advised) alternate air. And others too e.g. a DA42 gets a dual engine failure at -15C unless alt air is used.

This serious incident in an SR22T was probably air duct icing, FL230.

A search on icing here digs up many great threads e.g. here and I do recommend that. On most forums people won’t discuss this stuff, especially not in the USA.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Thanks for sharing loco! It is indeed stressful to fly IMC in subzero with no de-ice equipment…

ESSZ, Sweden

Aviathor wrote:

RobertL18C mentioned lengthy STARs, but an additional problem is ATC restrictions where they keep you down at some altitude where there is a risk of icing and won’t let you climb because of traffic above

I agree and happens all the time. I was flying back from Avignon last week to my home base EGBE. Flying through solent at FL100 the cloud tops started to get higher so asked ATC for climb to FL120. They said that they would have to Negotiate with London. I eventually got the climb which kept me out of IMC. When finally passed onto Birmingham radar who would eventually give me vectors to final at Coventry, they descended me to FL070 in preparation. This put me in IMC at -6 DEG C, not where you want to be for a long period of time. I’m fortunate to have FIKI on my SR22 and always put it on in the descent if I’m going to go through icing conditions, however, I don’t use the FIKI as a licence, more as a tool to exit. I asked for a further descent and they declined due to other IFR traffic below. The FIKI was working well so it was not a problem, but if I had been flying my old rented Arrow, it would have been ‘interesting’.

Another time on a departure whilst with London Control I was climbing through IMC, I could see the sunlight getting stronger and stronger but levelling off at FL100 I did not quite get on top. Now I was picking up ice and had not turned on the TKS (lesson learned). It then takes a little while to find the space to get your call in, when I managed to, I asked for a climb. The controller asked WHY? when you are at your filed cruising level? When I explained I was in icing conditions, he gave me the climb, within 500ft I was on top.

Last Edited by Rob2701 at 17 Oct 09:37
EGBE (COVENTRY, UK)

About on half of my flights I need to spend some amount of TKS fluid for a couple of minutes until I’m somewhere around FL180. I fly long distance (Spain – Germany) and typically have about 3 flights every week. My strategy is to get on top and cruise in VMC. I cruise in IMC if the clouds are very thin and cold enough. If I need to climb higher, I do FL210 for a cruise but that is rarely needed or just for a short moment.

Occasionally I had to climb through icing with TKS on to get to really cold air or to get on top. As long as I don’t notice any degradation of speed (130 IAS) or climb rate (500 – 700 fpm at altitude) I continue and do not worry.

Here and there I’ve seen the ice accumulate quickly. Usually where was convective activity somewhere around. The ADL sat WX helps you to stay away from the bad stuff but the air is usually quite moist under those conditions. I’ve also experienced that clouds are more wet at their top. Can be impressive when you are not prepared and don’t have the TKS running before entering them.

So far I’ve not had to cancel any flight because of weather or icing in particular and I do use my SR22TN as a regular means of travel. But I’m prepared to cancel anytime – there just wasn’t any real need to do so. The exception is VFR airports that won’t let you depart.

I fully understand that icing can be really bad and might get you killed. However, I believe that here in Europe we have much more benign weather than in some part of the U.S. That statement is an impression but I may be wrong due to lack of knowledge / experience. Although I do fly a lot I’m still pretty green and new to this.

The worst experiences so far were climbing through a cumulus cloud in which I picked up quite a bit fairly quickly. I did enter the cloud at some 10C and didn’t turn on the TKS as I was climbing in quite a bit of turbulence. The other was when I was in a bit of light hail before breaking out at the top – no ice accumulated due to running TKS. The turbulence in both cases does scare me for real. The icing is more a process that you can watch and plot a strategy to get out of.

Last Edited by Stephan_Schwab at 17 Oct 09:56
Frequent travels around Europe

Peter wrote:

Unless you have radar…

Precisely. :-).

For planning, the SIG Wx is as specific as anything else showing where there might be CBs and what tops to expect; just before and in-flight any sort of radar – from ground-uplink radar with 15 mins delay to real-time on board – is the only thing that helps if the CBs are embedded.

I never thought the various weather sites offered any more certainty than the SIG Wx, as far as CBs and moderate+ icing are concerned. They give spurious precision because they show a much higher resolution, though.

Look at the SIG Wx vs. the GRAMET for the flight above. Both show a warm front with typical layered cloud ahead of the front, topping out mostly at FL80 (SIGMET) or FL100 (GRAMET), with some layers above that and moderate icing. The GRAMET has a bit more information on the vertical layering, the SIG Wx has a bit more information on the coverage, both tell me the same – “You are flying through a warm front, expect ice and some turbulence”.

The SIG Wx above is the SFC-FL100 one, not a good one to use if you can get higher, but proves the point.

Biggin Hill
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