masterofnone wrote:
All learning effectively comes from experience
Most definitely not, but that is beside the point. A fresh PPL knows all he/she needs to know to fly wherever he wants. What prevents him is mental obstacles based on the fact that up to that point he has been doing only what he has been told. Suddenly he needs a reason to go somewhere, whereas earlier he did that cross country trip to get that PPL, and that was more than enough reason to do it.
I don’t think we disagree. It’s just that getting out of the “student mode” and into the “PIC mode” is not something you can do by doing more training, in my opinion. That is like putting out fire with gasoline. It’s a well known phenomena. The first time I got to know about it was when doing gliding in the early 1980s. The fear of leaving gliding distance from the home base is the same thing, only more “visible” and tangible.
A PPL gives you a license to be “free as a bird”, but you have to jump out of the nest yourself (mentally speaking). I mean, what you want to do is to fly with the flock. The only way to do that is to find a flock and fly with them. For those wanting to cruise around Europe IFR, then I guess this place is as good as any to find one or several flocks.
LeSving wrote:
It’s pure nonsense nonetheless.Hey, if I repeat that to myself enough, will I believe that?
A subtle point you don’t appear to have grasped is that you don’t teach experience…its an irrelevant observation.
All learning effectively comes from experience. Experience, as the saying goes, is the product of bad judgement. Accordingly, whilst there is nothing to stop anyone from just getting on and doing a particular thing in isolation, it should be recognised that this is a particularly inefficient way to learn. You’ll only (likely) end up repeating the mistakes of everyone who went before you. You’d have to be quite a “special” person to only want to learn from your own mistakes.
The whole point I was trying to address was to highlight efficient methods by which people can share their experiences, and help others progress and become more capable than they otherwise would in isolation. Having an active aero club with a large source of experienced aviators is the ideal, though this is a rare thing. Video resources appear to be a great way to impart the benefits of experience, especially as the audience is potentially large.
The problem with ignorance is that we tend to ignore how ignorant we are until we realize what we don’t know.
It’s often observed by people that their training (whether PPL, IMC or IR) stopped a long way short of being really useful. It taught the fundamentals, but not enough to empower one to really go places.
Short of flying right seat for a commercial operation, under the supervision of a captain who is actually himself building up his experience, no amount of PPL training will actually prepare you for “flying places”, or it will be so expensive that nobody will afford it. And who says that freshly minted PPLs all want to go places?
I think the PPL training is just fine. What you need thereafter is an environment in which you can hear tall stories about what others have done, being surrounded by people who have gone places and came back to talk about it so you can learn from it. An aeroclub that organizes trips during which the participants can learn the ropes by an instructor. That is the aeroclub equivalent of line training. Places like EuroGA is a substitute/complement to such aeroclubs.
As a young PPL in Norway I used to hang out at my aeroclub during weekends. There would always be other pilots around, at that time all much more experienced than myself (since I had virtually 0 hours). Lots of hangar talk, descriptions of destinations around Europe, engines, airplanes…
The worst thing that can happen to a young PPL is being on his own with little possibility of mingling with other pilots.
Stickandrudderman wrote:
I am certainly not averse to it but my learning curve is dramatically steeper if I avail myself of the assistance of others.
I agree 100% The important thing is to be within a community, to not be on your own. A workshop is a poor substitute, throwing money out the window essentially. The only value about such things is you meet other people with experience, but you don’t need to pay someone for that. Remember, we are talking about doing things that are well within the limits of a standard PPL regarding flying and navigational skills. I mean, exploring the possibilities of what this license allows us to do, is maybe the main reason to get this license in the first place. Some of it do require additional training and ratings (acro, IFR, sea etc), but I think we are on the wrong track when people start to feel they need some kind of “written permission” or a statement from “someone”, to fly to places they haven’t been before. It’s just plain wrong in my opinion, and there must be something terribly wrong with the initial training if pilots feel such needs, instead of feeling the freedom to explore and go wherever they want.
A PPL gives us the opportunity to act as Pilot In Command, to be the captain of the ship. There is only one to be good at it, and all the training in the world (in addition to the training needed for PPL) will not help you much.
People can do whatever they want of course, attend whatever workshop that seem appropriate. I just don’t see the point, when what they really need is to get out and fly and meet other pilots.
I disagree, LeSving.
There are plenty of people who have plenty of confidence coupled with a large dose of ignorance and they might easily prevent themselves from getting into all sorts of trouble if they take the time to listen to others and learn from them, were such knowledge made available in a recognisable package such as a workshop.
I for one would certainly be happy to attend any such workshop as all of the ones I have attended in the past have offered me some new insight which I might not have discovered had I simply relied on “getting out there and doing it”. I am certainly not averse to it but my learning curve is dramatically steeper if I avail myself of the assistance of others.
In my professional life I describe myself as “in the 36th year of my apprenticeship” whilst others see me as a recognised expert.
As a 400 hour PPL I consider myself as only just started and will happily take all of the help I can get.
masterofnone wrote:
It’s often observed by people that their training (whether PPL, IMC or IR) stopped a long way short of being really useful. It taught the fundamentals, but not enough to empower one to really go places.
Well, repeat this often enough and people start believing it. It’s pure nonsense nonetheless. You cannot teach experience, currency, interest and personal skills to anyone no matter how hard you try. Some things we just have to do, based on the basics we have learned. No one will teach you how to travel around the world in a sail boat, you just have to do it when you feel ready and experienced enough. Just because some people gladly will take your money to “teach” you such things, does not mean you will learn what is needed. You cannot be teached how to be on your own and gain experience being on your own.
The only way is to fly, push the limits gradually. That and to talk to other people. Get into a community to share experiences.
arguably a form of soft insurance
That’s a good point, aye it is. And yes, much of the presented text will be known, or even boring; but one can always hear something new. Also, it often helps to hear well known facts rehearsed in other words.
Myself have registered for a day of safety training with my national microlight federation – AFAIU it will be focussing on engine out landings and is sensibly organised at a little used military field with those endless hard runways. A good opportunity to catch up, I have long felt guilty about insufficiently training engine out incidents.
Jan/Peter the last safety evening I attended was hosted by a friendly, authoritative gentlemen with a SAR background if I recall. Some of the content may be mother and apple pie, a bit unfair to call it banal, but as always there was stuff which was either new, or presented in an interesting way. I did get my log book stamped (quite a large pasted in stamp). I am not aware if it can be used to reduce insurance, I doubt it, but it is a strong mitigating factor if one day you stumble into CAS, or have another lapse in airmanship which results in a conversation with the CAA.
So arguably a form of soft insurance. The airfield hosting it will also take note if you attend, and at the smaller airfields this helps in keeping your good standing as one of the resident pilots. i.e. goodwill credit
I mean, what other use could such a stamp ever be?
It’s completely worthless for any real purpose.
It’s like you writing in your logbook that you flew as a passenger on Easyjet. 100% legal, though!
a workshop where you throw in a real A-B route and look at the wx data and discuss how to (or whether to) do it
I am certainly a potential buyer
About half the audience queued up to get their logbooks stamped that they attended the seminar!
Why? Hoping for reduced insurance rates, perhaps? I mean, what other use could such a stamp ever be?
