Coolhand wrote:
In Spain you’re expected to leave the route field blank in your VFR FPL.
In fact, if you put some IFR waypoints using DCT your FPL can be rejected, since DCT cannot be used here.When flying to/from Portugal they expect you to indicate at least the IFR point where you’ll be entering or leaving their FIR, but nothing more.
Is that recent? It’s been a few years since I last flew in Spain, but I always used IFR waypoints in the route field on long x-country trips and ATC were always happy with that. Of course, no DCT.
Airborne_Again wrote:
DCTs are certainly permitted! In fact just putting in points in sequence is not permitted (unless the points are lat-long). In fact, under international standards there is no difference between IFR and VFR in what is legal in the route section of a flight plan.
Well, that may well be the case, but I had FPs rejected in Vienna (LOWW) and in Spain for inserting a DCT. Go figure…..
I have always used DCTs in VFR flight plans, and I still occassionally fly VFR on short legs e.g. UK to Le Touquet, or between Croatian islands.
Spain’s reported requirement
In Spain you’re expected to leave the route field blank in your VFR FPL.
is astonishing, contrary to ICAO, contrary to any sensible common sense (search and rescue? – forget it). I wonder if this is published anywhere?
Peter wrote:
Spain’s reported requirementI checked the Spanish AIP – both the flight planning section and the section on VFR. There is no mention of this. The description on how to fill in a flight plan form seems to be taken straight from the ICAO standards. Certainly the description of Item 15 (Route) made no mention of special rules for VFR.In Spain you’re expected to leave the route field blank in your VFR FPL.is astonishing, contrary to ICAO, contrary to any sensible common sense (search and rescue? – forget it). I wonder if this is published anywhere?
On the other hand as @Coolhand is based in Madrid, he should know how it works. It’s very confusing.
boscomantico wrote:
This is very wrong.ICAO Doc 444, in its section on flightplans, says (irrespective of VFR or IFR):
OK, thanks for the reference. I have been thinking very hard where I had this information from. I am pretty sure that I had a VFR flight plan rejected once on the basis of using “DCT” in it, but can’t for the life of me remember when or where.
The only reference I found is this Austrian AIC, which states:
But of course it doesn’t specify what the difference is between a “necessary” and an “unnecessary” DCT.
Maybe I misused the wording “you are expected”, I suppose now from your comments that it implies some kind of legal obligation.
What I was trying to say is that neither ARO nor ATC expects to see any route in a VFR FPL. You can put your route if you want, but nobody will ask for it if you don’t put anything. Which in fact is what happens usually. Personally I don’t know of anybody who uses the ‘route’ field (in VFR).
Regarding the DCT topic, you really cannot use it. It is not allowed in Spain. There is an Eurocontrol document (cannot remember now the name or reference) where each country (or FIR probably) introduces the maximum distance allowed between points linked by a DCT. In Spain this distance is exactly 0 nm. So any DCT will be rejected. Maybe in VFR, since the FPL is only manually revised and accepted, a DCT could pass unnoticed in the ARO and get into the system, I’ve never tried.
Regarding the DCT topic, you really cannot use it. It is not allowed in Spain. There is an Eurocontrol document (cannot remember now the name or reference) where each country (or FIR probably) introduces the maximum distance allowed between points linked by a DCT. In Spain this distance is exactly 0 nm.
Sure, but these are IFPS rules thus apply only to IFR.
Coolhand wrote:
What I was trying to say is that neither ARO nor ATC expects to see any route in a VFR FPL. You can put your route if you want, but nobody will ask for it if you don’t put anything. Which in fact is what happens usually. Personally I don’t know of anybody who uses the ‘route’ field (in VFR).
Maybe in Spain, but I can assure you that if you try this in Sweden your VFR flight plan will be rejected.
Coolhand wrote:
Regarding the DCT topic, you really cannot use it. It is not allowed in Spain. There is an Eurocontrol document (cannot remember now the name or reference) where each country (or FIR probably) introduces the maximum distance allowed between points linked by a DCT. In Spain this distance is exactly 0 nm. So any DCT will be rejected. Maybe in VFR, since the FPL is only manually revised and accepted, a DCT could pass unnoticed in the ARO and get into the system, I’ve never tried.
As boscomantico states, such EuroControl rules only apply to IFR. How do you expect VFR traffic operating off standard routes flys between waypoint, if not direct? They can’t be following a standard route between waypoints if they are off standard routes. It has to be direct!
It’s been about 10 years since I last few in Spain, but I definitely had no problem filing and flying flight plans that included routes and DCTs between the waypoints, when flying under VFR. In some cases, filed by myself, and in some via the ARO.
Last 2 weeks just did VFR:
- EFKU – EPMO
- EPMO – EPKK
- EPKK – LRAR
- LRAR – LHUD
- LHUD – LGKO
- LGKO – LGSM
- LGSM – LCPH
FP passed over many countries, the only time I had one refused was the last one because I was bordering Turkey. I used DCT between IFR reporting points as well IFR routes when appropriate.
In many countries I was requested to fly IFR levels, VFR levels were replayed as non-available.
!! 
