From here
After having spent a wonderful few days in the Greek islands last autumn and experiencing once again the sincere and warm welcome from the people of Greece, including notably help from Goldair handling in Corfu way beyond normal service, followed by almost offended pushback of a tip: “don’t even think about it”…
I wanted to ask the greek AOPA: would it be possible to publish an online petition to the ministry of Tourism along the following lines:
They need to be aware of how much more high end tourists they would get by just aligning with EU regulations and delivering decent service at airports.
With hundreds of signatures on it, we could give AOPA Greece the proof that the country could benefit in a significant way from waking up to this.
Covid is the perfect opportunity to offer solutions.
@Flyingfish
Your views are exactly what the GA community and AOPA try to achieve, what we all call common sense but deep in the state they are not perceived as common sense.
There are efforts in progress though.
Latest is here, two recent letters to Ministry of Transport awaiting action by counterparts.
https://www.aopa.gr/el/enimerosi/energeies-tis-aora-ellas/986-pros-ypourgo-ypodomon-metaforon
They are in the Greek version of the site and need to be translated i.e. in Google translate with copy paste of text.
Such actions are not published in English section or social media until there are at least some positive outcomes.
Yes the covid era is perfect opportunity for solutions to eternal problems, they are aware of this in AOPA Greece.
To Moderators: maybe these two last posts are not related to a Corfu LGKR thread but a more generic on Greece like this one.
[ done ]
Thank you for your reply petakas. How about putting up an online petition where foreign participants could express interest and maybe help you demonstrate the usefulness of doing something
Its a valid point, I will pass it on ;-)
Just wanted to post a (bit long) summary of a short 2.5 days Greek island tour from last week. I did it to build hours but also to test the viablity of flying in Greece during the summer months.
We started the trip in Haifa, Israel on a Sunday morning.
Handling in all Greek airports was done by SkyServ who were very cooperative, forthcoming, friendly and helpful and respected the AOPA rates to the letter. I have only good words to say about them.
Used my AOPA Hellas card in all cases.
Diamond DA42
1900KG MTOW
Crew X2
Jet A1
All costs quoted without VAT.
Mission achieved:
First Leg:
LLHA (Haifa, Israel) – LGRP (Rodos/Diagoras)
Handling by SkyServ Rodos
Got PPR, Landing, Parking (~30 minutes…), fuel
Costs:
EXE (I guess this is what they call the simple handling charge): 40.00 Euro
PPR: 35.00 Euro
Landing Fee: 74.40 Euro (no VAT charged)
Disb. fees AIRPORT LANDING FEE: 7.44
Total: 156.84
Fuel Cost BP Rodos: 1.271 Euro/Ltr
Second leg:
LGRP (Rodos/Diagoras) – LGKP (Karpathos)
PPR, Parking for 1 night
SkyServ Karpathos
EXE: 40.00
PPR: 35.00
Landing: 1.79
Disb.: 0.18
Total: 76.97
Third leg:
LGKP (Karpathos) – LGSR (Santorini)
PPR and parking for 30-45 minutes only.
SkyServ Santorini
EXE: 40.00
PPR: 35.00
Landing: 60.00
Customs: 29.41 (even though we did not need customs as we already passed border control and customs in Rhodes, they told us that we need to pay this…)
Disb. fees Airport: 6.00
Disb. fees Custom: 2.94
Total: 173.35
Fourth leg:
LGSR (Santorini)- LGSO (Syros) with an overfly of Milos where we decided not to land as the handling was not clear if we were welcome and there was a strong crosswind…
SkyServ Syros
EXE: 40.00
Landing: 7.34
Disb.: 0.73
Total: 48.07
Fifth Leg:
LGSO (Syros) – LGIO (Ioannina) (including 1 night parking and fuel by BP)
SkyServ Ioannina
EXE: 40.00
Landing: 14.68
Disb.: 1.47
Total: 56.15
Fuel Cost BP IOA: 1.316 Euro/Ltr
Sixth Leg:
Landing and refuling, passport control
LGIO (Ioannina) – LGST (SITIA)
SkyServ SITIA
EXE: 40.00
Total: 40.00
Fuel Cost BP SITIA:1.391 Euro/Ltr
Continued home from SITIA to Haifa.
Total Trip:1843 NM overy 2.5 days.
Total of 6 landings/takeoffs in Greece
Overnight parking in Karpathos and Ioannina
VFR flight, using VFR routes where available.
Flight plans via EuroFPL. One issue to note is alternate airports. Since the small airports have different opening hours, you need to take this into consideration when selecting alternates. In one case we could not take-off because our alternate was about to close. This was fixed by the tower in 5 minutes. Planning around the various opening hours is a real challenge.
Flying with SkyDemon, ForeFlight and Garmin G1000. Each had its pluses and minuses. Specifically in the area of VFR routes where applicable.
All service providers, Athena TMA, Athena FIR, all airports towers, MTMAs (Aktion, Andravida) were extremely friendly and helpful, answering all our requests (360 of Santorini, Syros and Milos), only airport where we had to hold for traffic for a few minutes was Santorini. Otherwise, smooth sailing…
Santorini refused overnight parking, as is well known, so it is really only practical for passenger drop-off or loading.
Aktion agreed for overnight parking after a long discussion but their terms did not meet our constraints so we decided on friendly Ioannina.
Overall, I was impressed by the quality of runways, terminals, professional controllers, efficient handling, virtually empty skies, beautiful scenery (because we could not park in Santorini we visited the wonderful Karpathos island with its amazing scenery, beautiful beaches and the colorful Olympos village) and the whole experience was great. Syros was an especially nice small airport and the coffee in the small port, just a 5 minutes taxi ride from the airport, was refreshing.
I think that the potential for GA in Greece is excellent.
The AOPA Hellas web site is a gem and the AOPA Hellas team was forthcoming with excellent tips and clarifications. Reading the instructions can make it seem complicated at first but in fact, once you understand the logic, flying VFR in Greece is easy, the controllers are accomodating and friendly which makes things really easy.
If you come ready, understand the Frapport limitations and rates, do not expect to park overnight in Santorini, Mykonos, etc., you will enjoy the visit for sure.
Naturally, more GA parking spaces, full day opening hours in all airports, lower rates in Frapport airports will be appreciated.
lower rates in Frapport airports will be appreciated.
As you can see yourself, the majority of cost you paid to handler for basically doing nothing, especially on refueling stops. So, Fraport is not so big issue, handlers are.
If you look at the costs in Santorini and Rodos, both have landing fees of 60 and 74.40 Euro and I assume this is the Fraport overhead over non-Fraport airports. Remember also that I had only technical stops in both airports and I assume that having passengers in/out or longer parking, if allowed, would bring the cost up.
I agree that handling is the main cost including the PPR.
I agree that handling is the main cost including the PPR.
PPR cost is also defined by handlers – they charge you for e-mail sent to Fraport. Few weeks ago I landed to LGKF to drop off three passengers and total bill was €200 – €130 was handling (walking to the building), €67 landing fee and €13 parking (charged like 24 hours for below 1 hour drop off and refueling stop). Greece is nice and I like it and I like flying there but they have some serious issues to fix to become GA friendly country.
I am all for cost reduction…
The requirement for handling/PPR even when not required is a pain. At least, PPR requests should be free.
I m a Greece fan and I know all you re speaking about, (I’m going Ioannina, Syros and Karpathos this august, and I was there last summer)…
In your case you were flying JetA1 with good range…. What an advantage !
in Greece difficulties are
- Lack of AVGAS
- Fraport is always more expensive by far if you stay serveral days
- Opening Hours of airport
For other things, Greece is paradise…
Thanks for sharing
Any advice for Karpathos ? it will be my first time there.
