VFR is easy too if you remain OCAS.
In Europe, the flight plan will (almost) never be refused on any route which is OCAS.
You must get enroute notams (the Narrow Route Briefing, or whatever it is called now) because not everywhere OCAS is flyable at all times.
The default position re radio contact (which is normally mandatory when crossing narional borders) is the area FIS frequency, and that is on the VFR charts.
The ability to get CAS crossing varies. But OCAS will always work – subject to the above.
Your Z flight plan issue is very unusual, but then “Z” has a VFR portion, so… it comes back to what I say above about VFR. Anybody filing Z or Y must do that part fully as VFR. There is no IFR clearance on that part, and often no ATC contact or surveillance.
Wouldn’t the PAMS Lite part of EAD be close to what you are lookong for, in terms of a common pan-Eurpoean repository of information?
Peter wrote:
VFR is easy too if you remain OCAS.
Let’s rephrase that – once again – as “outside those types of controlled airspace that require ATC clearances”. At least 90% of german (and Swiss AFAIK) airspace below FL100 consists of controlled airspace class E. You can fly there VFR as free as a bird. Other than real birds, you don’t even need to twitter anything to anybody.
Peter wrote:
Your Z flight plan issue is very unusual,
Indeed, because many/most VFR airfields have a radio operator of some kind who will assist you in getting your clearance and who will tell you which frequency to call after departure. It is really only at those airfields where you are completely alone that you have to find out about those frequencies. But even there you often find someone who collects the landing fee or fellow aviators who can give you that information. The last time I looked into an AIP was when I studied for the air law exam of the PPL…
I think it is easy to over complicate this stuff. Just do some research, come up with a plan and execute the plan. Not everything will go as hoped but you will learn and almost certainly get there and back.
Exactly. And there is no way to “learn it all” on the ground. You have to go and make your own experiences. But believe me: Once you’re in the air it’s all less complicated then you thought.
Vladimir wrote:
In my opinion there are two problems: It isn’t standardized. I think that was discussed on the forum as I see hints about such discussions. There isn’t a common official place to look at and see the differences/requirements for each country. Yes, you are right that there are multiple sources for information and you can search and read. But how do you know when you got everything and are good to go? Do you go and buy the AIP for each country and read it all through to make a flight? I would need 6-7 countries to reach Bulgaria. I don’t say it’s impossible, I just say it could be better. Maybe an idea for the next successful GA pilots web site…
Back when I did my first international trips from Norway to Sweden, Denmark, Germany and France (VFR), there was no PAMS, very little useful resources on the Internet. My best source of information about the particularities of countries was the Jeppesen manual which contained excerpts of the AIP for each of the countries, along with the VACs. AFAICT it contained everything I needed to know in order to fly in each of these countries. In addition to the Jeppesen manual, I also procured the French VFR folder with the chart supplements, including the list of all of the restricted/prohibited areas and AZBAs, phone numbers to the AIS etc. Of course it helped that I was fluent in French 
JasonC wrote:
I think it is easy to over complicate this stuff. Just do some research, come up with a plan and execute the plan. Not everything will go as hoped but you will learn and almost certainly get there and back.
I agree. The research is simply a matter of spending some time reading the AIPs, or the Jeppesen equivalent, procuring the charts and familiarising yourself with them. Then you plan your flights and fly. Not that difficult. Nothing to loose a good night’s sleep over
I recently checked the possibility for a renewed BG flight, all documents are on PAMS. No problem whatsoever to get it.
Also VFR charts are available there for Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia.
The more basic aspect of all this is that if PPL schools taught their customer to actually from from A to B, or especially fly internationally, the PPL would cost a lot more.
Maybe 50% more, because the missing stuff is operational knowledge which cannot be crammed into a bit of ground school, so cannot be taught efficiently.
And it would destroy the training business – because most people that do a PPL do it for reasons other than flying! Most do it as a lifestyle achievement, a box ticking exercise, to spend the 10k they got for xmas, etc. Obviously this is not true for people reading EuroGA because that population is already self-selected. A PPL listed on the price list at €15-20k would not attract many customers!
Also few instructors have been past the crease on the map, so who would teach it?
The % who want to continue flying post-PPL is not a big market. In the UK it is so small that almost nobody caters for it. There is one freelance guy I know of who works 24/7 to maintain a presence on the UK chat sites, he is on twitter, facebook, everywhere, sells seminars, sells DVDs, writes articles for the mags, you name it. I think he is a CRI, though he may be an FI. Just one guy. I don’t know what he makes but perhaps 50k. I went to one of his in 2003. It was good but really really basic. I am told that he has a lot of problems getting permissions to do his presentation at some airfields because the schools don’t like him on their turf (I had the same when doing my VFR-Europe presentation; the local schools all boycotted any promotion).
Even at the IFR / advanced aircraft level, where there is still more knowledge to be transferred, there are just very few operations and they have very few customers. Even at that level almost nobody wants to pay for training. And to be honest, human nature is that you can’t expect somebody who has been through the mill, collecting every piece of paper going, banging approaches under the hood, to want to do yet more voluntary training…
One just has to live with this. It’s the way GA is. You have to decide to go somewhere and get on with it. Any questions, weather, routing, whatever, ask here on EuroGA. We don’t allow personal abuse here – that is the most commonly given reason by people for not asking openly.
It works in the USA because they have one language (well, ok, but you know what I mean 
), one unified airspace, one ATC system, one type of VFR chart, one airport publication (the AFD – though I am sure many go online nowadays), one weather service (comment as previous). They do have an AIP, for ICAO compliance reasons, but nobody in the USA uses it. So a fresh US PPL can just jump into a rented PA28 and fly from Phoenix up to Bryce Canyon, without encountering anything new.
I probably posted this before but a while ago I started writing down some notes here
In most ways flying is easier once one is airborne, that’s true, but you still must do some basic planning otherwise you will get caught. Today I flew to Bournemouth to get the 2-yearly FAA altimeter check done. I went at 4000ft to get the expected VFR transit at Southampton and a handover to Bournemouth (in flying, always try to set up a fait accompli for ATC) and having (rarely) forgotten to check enroute notams I avoided busting a TRA on the way (3000ft top). On the way back I got a clearance to 2000ft max and didn’t bother to climb higher once clear of CAS, when Southampton called me up and asked me if I knew about the prohibited zone coming up! Obviously I didn’t so while still in their CAS I asked for a climb to 4000ft, and they told me the top of it was 3000ft and cleared me to climb.
And it would destroy the training business – because most people that do a PPL do it for reasons other than flying!
Where I instruct, 95% do their PPL as first step for their ATPL. They don’t care about operational or international flying as they will learn that later on the job – if they get one. They would certainly not pay a single Euro extra if it can be avoided.
The other ones who will fly privately would of course benefit from some extra training towards operational flying. But I think that it should be an optional addition after gaining their PPL, otherwise it would make the course too expensive as you say. If one could get two or three fresh PPL holders together and do a weekend in the classroom with them and a second one doing some cross-border flying in a four-seater it would not cost more than 2000 Euros per student. I live in an ideal location for that because within 10 flying hours you can “collect” 6 different countries.
I don’t know what he makes but perhaps 50k.
Then he is probably the best paid flying instructor in Europe.
what_next wrote:
The other ones who will fly privately would of course benefit from some extra training towards operational flying. But I think that it should be an optional addition after gaining their PPL, otherwise it would make the course too expensive as you say.
A PPL should be the bare minimum in my opinion. If we want to include periphery stuff such as border crossing, then we would also include acro, sea, towing, lifting parachutes, mountain flying, snow (ski), night VFR, long sea crossing, flying in rain, flying in snow, short field, international field. I mean, the list is endless of things that is not part of basic and core VFR skills. Some of it requires training, but most requires nothing, except maybe a community.
