PPR: If you have rats in your house, do you block up the hole from the sewer, or do you write an app for them?

LeSving wrote:

The standard answer is a automated “yes”.

How does that help you when you are in the air and need to divert or make a precautionary landing? Not in an emergency situation, but to prevent a potential emergency from occurring.

That is really my major gripe with PPRs. The inconvenience is also a thing, of course.

Silvaire wrote:

It has everything to do with it when you understand that safety and compliance is used as an excuse to justify PPR on an individual plane-by-plane basis, with mandatory briefings of local conditions often held up as important

Yes. Safety and compliance is the single most easy way of enforcing whatever stupid idea people have. Where PPR is being used as a stay away tool, it is always based on a perceived risk they or the CAA do not want to take.

Mandiatory briefings though almost never get initiated by the airfields though but they are told by the CAA that they “have to do something” mostly after some accidents or incidents. None of the airfields which I am aware of that use mandiatory briefings with tests and certificates came up with this by themselves, as you rightly say they would shoot themselves in the foot.

PPR for parking and stuff like this CLEARLY are “stay away, we don’t want you” kind of things.

Which brings me back to something I’ve been saying for years: The only reason this actually is possible to enforce is because airports and particularly airfields are not regarded as part of public INFRASTRUCTURE which would make such practices impossible or at least a lot harder to implement!

Silvaire wrote:

Of course reality says otherwise, the only effect of PPR is to screw with people, pushing their wallets away, and the safety and legality of the operation is primarily and properly the pilots responsibility, on every flight. PPR is largely a power grab by individuals who are ultimately willing to reduce their income to feel a little more important. It’s a sad state of affairs that people feel that downtrodden and disenfranchised.

Absolutely. PPR is a power grab, it is sometimes just not too clear by whom. I would not believe that the initiators in most cases are airfield operators themselves out of spite or lack of self importance, but rather due to outside pressures they have to live with to keep the airfield open. NIMBY organisations who lean on politicians, politicians who wish toget a cheap “look I’m doing something” for their next elections and worse CAA’s who are infested with lawyers whose only reason of being there is to see that they cover their backsides until no bit is ever exposed.

Rubbish like parking PPR for GA and stuff like this however clearly is exactly what you say: Pushing away people’s wallet saying “we don’t want your business” and denying access to what should be a public infrastructure to people who have all the right to use it. This is particularly brutal with larger airports who claim to have no parking but obviously have space laying empty in abundance (such as Corfu and other Greek airports).

Yes, it is an absolutely sorry state of affairs.

Airborne_Again wrote:

How does that help you when you are in the air and need to divert or make a precautionary landing? Not in an emergency situation, but to prevent a potential emergency from occurring.

That is really my major gripe with PPRs.

Absolutely and the same goes for outpricing too.

What if you get a rough running engine and are 5 NM to an airport which will charge you $1500 to land there plus will refuse you because you have no PPR but 10 NM to a friendly airfield and then are forced to do a off airport landing 2 NM to the friendly spot? In the US, this would be a reason to sue the living daylights out of that airport but wait, they don’t have this problem in the US. And we don’t have the possibility to sue like they do here.

But I think we would have to go that way, to make this whole denial of service by airports a safety issue within EASA. Which it undoubtedly is. The question is if EASA would have the clout to actually outlaw this kind of behaviour to any effect. I somehow doubt it.

I suspect that there is also a difference in the perception of PPR based on the airfields that one regularly visits.

Those who predominantly visit larger airport which are open 365 days a year and have security, and marked parking spaces and a large staffing probably (quite rightly) question the need for a PPR. If the airport is open and is connected to the NOTAM system, then you should expect pilots to properly brief through the official channels and you just issue NOTAMs for anything that you want them to know about.

Runway closed due to works? No problem! Just issue a NOTAM.
Want pilots to avoid a particular area on approach? No problem! Just put it in the AIP entry.

However those who predominantly visit smaller fields probably see less of an issue with PPR. It’s usually a 1 minute phone call, followed by a “See you later!”.

As much as I would prefer a world without PPR, if I were to open my own airstrip and decide that I’d let others use it too if they wanted, then I think I would insist on PPR. Simply because I wouldn’t want someone suing me when they landed and crashed on a waterlogged runway, or fly over a noise sensitive neighbour who was constantly complaining. Unlicenced airport here (and in the UK), which are the majority of GA airports here, don’t have AIP entries, and have no easy and quick way to get a NOTAM into the system. And to be frank, I’d not want the obligation to head down to check the runway first thing in the morning to make sure everything was fine.

Those who say that it’s the pilot’s responsibility (might…I’m not sure) be correct in law. However that ignored the reality of what happens here. Someone crashes, and takes a case against the airport. The insurance company is involved. The insurance company decides that it’s cheaper to settle the case than to fight it, and makes a payout. Then you’re stuck with significantly increased premiums into the future.

So if I built my own runway, and decided to allow others to use it, I’d insist on PPR. That would change once it got large enough to have a full time staff, AIP entry, NOTAM system access etc.

@arj1 Dan’s problem communicating with Figari
is, however you look at it a total disgrace and in execusable. It deserves a complaint to the DGAC and a request to add a note in the AIP saying you will probably not get a reply to your email PPR so don’t waste your time.
Most pilots I know don’t use Figari except maybe to use their IAPs to descend to VMC and then over the hill into Propriano.
Sadly the non response to emails is indicative of businesses throughout France. At least they could send some sort of immediate response and that we will get back to you in xxx hours.
When it comes to the PN to C+I they often don’t respond unless you have asked a question. I have asked a couple of douanier about this and they promise to do better but at the same time others say " but you don’t need a response" you’ve done what you were asked to do ie given notice. However, on a personal level, if I I haven’t had any reply, always, given them a last minute call to ask “did you get my email and is everything okay?” For pilots who do not speak any French, there is usually an English speaker on the squad but individuals hours can be staggered so they might ask you to ring back in an hour or after lunch. Also don’t expect BBC English, you may have to slow down a bit.
If I were you I would write in English and stick a Google translation before it with a “sorry for the poor French heading” (I know Google does great but it sometimes helps to start a communication.
Again on a personal note I can understand the parking PPR at Caen over summer.
Even though if you look at the charts or Google earth there would seem to be masses of space.
I spent a while at the airfield last december. There was a lot of spaces for GA on first look.
However you exit the runway by 1 short taxiway to the apron. There is really only space for one CAT aircraft at a time on the left, by the time you add in the screens and cone and tape off the area around the aircraft as safe walkway for the passengers. Whilst I was there one CAT aircraft blocked that whole area for the day due to a failure of deicing equipment.
More than one CAT aircraft and with safe passenger walkways it does not leave a great deal of space for anything with a wingspan greater than a Robin to pass. And they would need to pass and swing round to the right if they wanted to get to fuel pump.
At the same time on your left is the fire station and in front of the fire station the mobile screens are kept along with big heavy concrete blocks which are used to stop the screens from moving.
On your left there are also maintenance hangars which (when I was there they had a couple of corporate jets) which of course needed clear space to manouver them in and out of the hangar. Further up on the left is the aeroclub and some private hangarage. There is quite a lot of space here for GA aircraft but on VFR days much of this will be taken by the club aircraft, the private hangared aircraft and any friends dropping in from other clubs etc.
For non based aircraft and CAT there is a small staff in the booking office who also serve to guide passengers and (now GA pilots without CIME and their passengers to and from their aircraft. New EU security laws at work).
The office is part of the terminal and with all the desks occupied there is only space for about 4 flight crew at a time to sign in or out pay fees etc. All crew and GA passengers must then pass through a door into a small corridor which then leads via another door into the main arrivals/departure hall.
To return via that door you ring a bell and wait until someone has the time to come and let you in and take your landing and parking fees before (if you have no CIME) guide you back to you aircraft.
This is only one of the PPRs at Caen all for different purposes. Most of which are explained by the charts.
I don’t know any CAP or other airfield in France which would cause problems because you landed in an emergency without PPR or even if you landed there as a diversion. Unless they think you are taking the pxss.
Linking to another thread most of the club members round here fly to Propriano via Gap Taillard. No PPRs, lunch, change pilot put on life vests and file a flight plan. It works well for us.

@Silvaire the photos you showed are positively deluxe compared to many here.
Try watching some of SpeedJojos videos on YTube or a beautiful trip to St Michaels Mount landing at Avranche. Local knowledge is great here and often much needed. But I don’t think that any are PPR (unless Avranche has added it)

dublinpilot wrote:

As much as I would prefer a world without PPR, if I were to open my own airstrip and decide that I’d let others use it too if they wanted, then I think I would insist on PPR. Simply because I wouldn’t want someone suing me when they landed and crashed on a waterlogged runway, or fly over a noise sensitive neighbor who was constantly complaining.

Well it could also be because you don’t want anyone coming there (remember what you describe is your private property) a specific day or time of day, for whatever reason. I mean if I were to own field next to my house big enough to make it into a runway, I would probably want to have some sort of PPR. I don’t really mind waking up early in week-ends or vacations, but my wife not so much so the only it would work would be to have system so that we can stop visitors from coming before 11.00 or something on week-ends.
In short, in the case of a private airfield, PPR can make a lot of sense (and those arguments should resonate quite well for US where private property is sacred!)

dublinpilot wrote:

If the airport is open and is connected to the NOTAM system

Unlicenced airport here (and in the UK), which are the majority of GA airports here, don’t have AIP entries, and have no easy and quick way to get a NOTAM into the system.

You don’t need to be “connected” to the NOTAM system. All you need is a location indicator and that the national NOTAM office is willing to accept your NOTAMs. That may be the real problem but it is only a problem of wanting to, or not.

My 630 m grass club airfield (very unlicensed) issues NOTAMs by e-mail or phone to the NOTAM office.