I’m not sure every country has a comms intercept service! I’d wager a guess the majority don’t.
But of course those countries who have major comms intercept services think it’s just normal and everyone else must have them too. It really shouldn’t be socially acceptable in my opinion.
Silvaire wrote:
’ll let others judge the validity of your assertion that the US government steals technology from European companies for themselves.
What do you mean by “themselves”? Obviously the government doesn’t build fuel injection systems by themselves – there is, however, most likely not a single meaningful US technology company that has not yet received a call form NSA at some point in time “we came across some information you should be interested in”…
I meant that I would let others reading here judge the merits of your argument for themselves, no additional info seems to be required.
Indeed; I get calls like that from the GCHQ all the time 
I think Malibuflyer has a fair point regarding current Chinese and European business ethics. It wasn’t Chinese engineers whose sense of morality spurred them to cheat EU and US automobile emissions tests – i.e to gas city dwellers in pursuit of product sales and profit.
Still, when it comes to government trustworthiness, I think the CCP scores a bit lower than some of its European counterparts.
I have noticed that when anything, person or State is called out a line of defence is always “well you did this, and you did that”. Playground politics, but of course we are all taken in.
I prefer another course. I prefer to consider the totality of the situation. There is an old saying about once is bad luck, twice is suspicious, three times and its a fair certainty.
It is for this reason I feel so strongly about the path China is taking. There are becoming far too many coincidences of bad business practice, human rights abuse, interference in other countries affairs etc the list is in fact long. It is made worse that on each occasion the same tactics are used in an attempt to diffuse crticism, and which, if not successful, turns into intimidation and threats.
I suspect everyone recognises China is a major problem, and to the extent we do, this means there is almost certainly a major problem.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
There are becoming far too many coincidences of bad business practice, human rights abuse, interference in other countries affairs etc the list is in fact long. It is made worse that on each occasion the same tactics are used in an attempt to diffuse crticism, and which, if not successful, turns into intimidation and threats.I suspect everyone recognises China is a major problem, and to the extent we do, this means there is almost certainly a major problem.
I don’t object to that! Yes, many thing China government does are to be criticized. I just pledge for two points:
- We should consider – as you claim – the totality of the situation: China is a superpower which has 3 times more people than the US. Considering our pride in democracy – what should be the role of China in the world? What is the actual role in a world that is still basically in a shape that was defined by the 2 historic post WW2 superpowers?
- We should apply the same standards to all other countries that we apply to China. Human rights and Guantanamo? Interference with other countries affairs and Grenell constantly commenting on German politics? Bad business practice and trying to disqualify Huawei politically rather than by delivering better 5G products?
On your three strikes rule, US is currently not on a better path than China…
Malibuflyer wrote:
- We should apply the same standards to all other countries that we apply to China. Human rights and Guantanamo? Interference with other countries affairs and Grenell constantly commenting on German politics? Bad business practice and trying to disqualify Huawei politically rather than by delivering better 5G products?
Of course.
However, as I said earlier it isnt a pissing competition. Many countires have matters of which they should not be proud.
.. .. .. but this must not be used to distract our focus from where it must remain. China, unlike any other super power, has embarked in a period in its history during which it is pushing the boundaries more than any other State. It is becoming more focused on its practices of human rights abuse, and more combative in its aspirations to excert its influence over territories which it hasnt traditional done. These are all of extreme dangers to the world order – we know that from history, and that is why the focus must remain on China.
As to China’s future role in the world that is a far more difficult question. It seems to me we have preserved relative peace for as long as we have because the world has accepted the need to confirm to certain international norms, which in particular include not leading escapades into disputed territories, and to a lesser extent, not engaging in the worst of human rights abuse. The former in particular history demonstrates will almost always result in more serious conflict, especially when it impacts on International Trade and the flow of International Trade. The Spratly Islands are very good examples. It is difficult to see any justification for militiarising remote atols, especially where the ulitmate purpose can only be to excercise control over vital international routes. Of course, you may well say their are examples of the UK and USA militiarising similiar island bases – but these are long established rights when the world was a different place. The fact that we enslaved people 100 odd years ago is not an excuse for doing it today.
If China continues to become more wealthy and able to influence world politics to a greater extent, then it needs to find its new place in the world, and that place is not destabilising, and not one that sets an example of the worst of human rights abuse, and not one where the world fears what China will do next. China may well feel it has been surpressed for too long, but the path on which it is embarked is not the way to force itself into a new world order if conflict is to be avoided, and conflict is ultimately an answer that results in no permanent solution.
Well, try extending that to WW1 and WW2… the US saved our skins, lost 250k men in WW2 doing it, and then rebuilt the place.
I do also think that list of “US wars” is hugely disingenuous. Most of it is internal stuff, which is China is done by machine gunning the rebellious hordes out of sight
One list starts 1775 and the other 1927. A lot of Wiki stuff is anti-US (a heavy correlation on social media generally) so one needs to use that resource with a bit of care.
