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How does flying with IMCR / IR(R) *really* work?

I think Peter has summed it up rather well.

When I’m going all over the place in various PA32’s I’m basically flying the whole route outside controlled airspace using Skydemon as the primary means of navigation. Regardless of whether I am VFR or IMC.

Its too much stress and hassle to come up with a plan B when I get refused controlled airspace transit. Plus I can’t afford an airspace bust so I just tend to stay well clear.

The back up to skydemon is an inbuilt GPS if there is one fitted. Even a lowly Bendix King KLX-135A VFR GPS will do the job.
VOR’s are an utter waste of space and I can no longer remember how to program a KNS80.

ADF and DME are much more useful but no one will repair an ADF these days and the number of NDB’s that are not stuck in controlled airspace is now few and far between.

I don’t usually bother with any form of Basic service although I do have an SkyEcho unit paired to the Ipad. And the worse the weather gets the less I worry about a mid air. In fact the time when I get most concerned is when doing a VFR join at a place like Goodwood.

Other dreadful examples of my airmanship would be the fact that I just fly through MATZ’s. As with controlled airspace I can’t be doing with getting a refusal and when your putting in a 100 hours a month that will happen quite a lot.

I did recently do a length of the country in airways. The track miles were a lot more and come winter I wouldn’t do it due the chance of picking up ice. Where as down low as long as the freezing level is higher than MSA I’m good to go. There is also no faff trying to get your clearance to enter.

Last Edited by Bathman at 25 Aug 08:01

The main difference I have noticed is that the FPL seems to go by the wayside even sometimes before take off. The route one is sent on does not resemble the route filed in any way unless one is arriving or departing from, in my case France and even then there is often a tone in the ATSOs voice which says you are doing something strange. Routes inland you have to keep reminding ATS that you are approaching the waypoint that they have cleared you to in order to get onward clearance and when they give you a change of frequency you need to renew your request for one of four services from basic through deconfliction to procedure. Sometimes the service you request cannot be provided due to too high a workload.

If the above relates to IR flying then I do not recognise it. The UK provides a seamless service in CAS.

If the above relates to IMCR flying then it is as expected because only the two airports have your flight plan. The rest is 100% DIY and if you want CAS you have to negotiate each bit of it (sometimes they will coordinate ahead, by phone).

The “no VMC on top” came with JAA I believe, in the 1990s. It ended in the UK c. 2011. It was also always removed for all IMCR holders and that removal was valid worldwide (even though the IFR privileges of the IMCR were UK-only).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

No that refers to a validated Eurocontrol flight plan filed through Autorouter at FL090
Two stand out Exeter EGTE to Southend EGMC.
Called for start up etc no problem cleared take off turn left after take off. Then nothing, then change of frequency then DCT to can’t remember exact point. But I kept getting sent.to points along the south coast and at every change of frequency was asked what service I required. If I asked for deconfliction or procedural I was told that they were sorry they could not provide that service due to workload.
My Eurocontrol validated flight plan took me north of Southampton and to the North of London.
At 2 minutes before I arrived at each waypoint to which I had been cleared I reminded them of where I was and needed a further clerance which I was always given but in a tone of voice that suggested they were not accustomed to this. I was directed south of London over Shoreham and into Southend.
What was strange was that Autorouter wrote to me saying that Exeter had contacted them and said I hadn’t taken off.
It was not a problem, just something I was not accustomed to.
A fight again Eurocontrol FPL from Southend to Sywell FL090? was much more straightforward. However on take I off again got a turn left then nothing, I felt I had to remind them I was still there and going the opposite direction to my intended route. But after a couple of standbys I got handed to London Control and got a maintain level 60 DcT xxx which was as per my flight plan from then no.problem.
On return Sywell to Brest I flew pretty much as planned with a few vectors in Southampton area. Hardly needed to speak to anyone and no need to ask for a particular service.

France

No that refers to a validated Eurocontrol flight plan filed through Autorouter at FL090
Two stand out Exeter EGTE to Southend EGMC.
Called for start up etc no problem cleared take off turn left after take off. Then nothing, then change of frequency then DCT to can’t remember exact point. But I kept getting sent.to points along the south coast and at every change of frequency was asked what service I required. If I asked for deconfliction or procedural I was told that they were sorry they could not provide that service due to workload.

This is off topic for this thread but that is some cockup. You must have left CAS in which case prob90 they will dump the flight plan. Check the map.

Eurocontrol validation is nothing to do with this. Most countries do not feed EC with the airspace etc data.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

All of this is very confusing.

I think I’m less sure now than when I asked the question. 😆

Lee
Barton EGCB, United Kingdom

Lee wrote:

I think I’m less sure now than when I asked the question. 😆

What was the question? joke aside, I see IR(R) as a stepping stone for my full IR. And until I don’t get the full IR, I can fly on top and land in IMC. That, to me, is good enough at this stage.

EGSU, United Kingdom

Must not mix up what happens with the IMCR and what happens with the IR.

The IMCR is basically a VFR procedure, except that you can legally go into IMC and can legally fly approaches in IMC. The ATC interaction is same as flying VFR. And a flight plan is not needed (it won’t do anything if you file one).

With an IR you use a different process. There is a flight plan, has to be validated by Eurocontrol, distributed along the route, all ATC have it, and you just fly along, interacting with ATC for shortcuts, wx avoids, climbs, etc. You have an implied clearance for the whole route (except OCAS bits at the end, perhaps).

Put it another way, with VFR and with IMCR, ATC work against you (and can always say NO and leave you to hang yourself, and they have no responsibility for your flight). With the IR, ATC work with you (and except in extremely rare cases will always let you fly on the filed route).

You can fly on top anyway, on a PPL, since c. 2011. Just have to find a hole in the cloud

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Right, with the added complexity on top of this description that IR doesn’t work that way in the UK. Obtaining end to end clearance doesn’t appear to be practical for typical terrestrial flights, so even with full IR, you’re still stuck begging for clearances or sticking to OCAS.

Lee
Barton EGCB, United Kingdom

@ Lee I have never held an IMC/IR(R) so I can only write from what I have heard or read.
The 2 occurrences in IR on a Eurocontrol Flight plan I perhaps should have made it clear on both of those flights I got from where I started to my desired destination and never felt that the ATSO was threatening me with some sort of penalty or CAA report. Flying mostly on the European mainland, particularly France, I was pointing out that I was unaccustomed to those sort of what I thought of as a rather opaque communications with ATS.

Last Edited by gallois at 25 Aug 11:11
France

So what’s the deal with using SkyDemon as the primary source of navigation? Although it does appear to be the most useful navigation aid available to us at first blush, I was under the impression that this was not allowed.

Lee
Barton EGCB, United Kingdom
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