italianjohn, agree for the aviation market as it is – but that’s exactly the point: that market is a dead end, literally, as the few remaining people who find the concept of flying on your own intriguing slowly die off, and the half-century old fleet with them.
I believe a big part of the A5 gamble is to get at new wallets – find buyers who never would even have considered flying otherwise, as the hardware and hassle just doesn’t appeal to them.
I mean seriously, if you are not into flying precisely because you like or even love all the formalisms, the challenges, the fact that every little aspect of it can lead you to unexpected depths of learning and sometimes insight, the self discipline needed to at least feel like you’re going anywhere as compared to the (more) frequent fliers or the professionals, the continual struggle to be as perfect as you can be – you will not bother a bit about what all of us are doing, and will never understand why we’re doing it.
Everyone could be driving around in 50ies cars too, after all these things worked just fine! People don’t, and a recent car is ages away from even a 20 year old car in terms of user interaction and presentation – cars are mostly not a object of interest in themselves any longer, but a means to an end (getting somewhere) – maybe with a feel of lifestyle (the stupidest concept ever, but it sells like hell…) attached, so you feel like you’re having fun doing it. I think Icon is trying to do something like that for recreational aviation; how well it’s going to work is a different question but I wish them all the best as we need any new idea and any additional fellow pilots we can get.
And hey – maybe our German authorities will some day see the light and realize that actually, our lakes and smaller rivers are actually mostly empty and no one would even be remotely harmed by a small airplane landing on or taking off from them… a realization like this would be greatly aided by a company like Icon generating some revenue, tax money and employment that is noteworthy. Though this is a long way away :(
Dooga wrote:
into flying precisely because you like or even love all the formalisms, the challenges, the fact that every little aspect of it can lead you to unexpected depths of learning and sometimes insight, the self discipline needed to at least feel like you’re going anywhere as compared to the (more) frequent fliers or the professionals, the continual struggle to be as perfect as you can be
Well put! That’s why I fly, indeed!
a recent car is ages away from even a 20 year old car in terms of user interaction and presentation – cars are mostly not a object of interest in themselves any longer
I agree with that, and its a great explanation of why making an aircraft as dull as a modern car will not attract anybody. When I look at the A5 instrument panel, what I see is a depressingly inaccessible, workaday and cheaply built plastic landscape – the kind of thing my weekends are oriented around avoiding because I see too much of it during the week. There are a great many potential buyers with that attitude towards enjoying life, and they’ve bought planes like RVs and classics by the thousands.
Ever been in the Alps on a sunny Sunday? I can assure you that in the 21st century you see a lot more people driving interesting old cars in the Alps than fly aircraft in Europe. Those are the kind of people that real world aviation can attract, not the people who finance a dull, emotionless modern car and can barely afford the payments. People who spend $20K or $100K or $200K on an old car (or the Euro equivalent), and there are lots of them who do, generally pay cash. New car buyers are more typically the broke masses stretching to spend $50K on what they can’t really afford, a totally inappropriate market for aviation. Most of them don’t have the drive required to get a license, and would do nothing more than talk even if there were new factory built aircraft available that look like a car, for the price of a new car, which will never be the case.
Silvaire wrote:
People who spend $100K on an old car, and there are lots of them who do, generally pay cash. New car buyers are more typically the broke masses stretching to spend $50K on what they can’t really afford, a totally inappropriate market for aviation.
This is correct – but then there is people who shell out $100ks for latest-greatest cars like AMG Mercedes, M Beamers, S Audis, Porsches with seat heating and electronic stability management, overweight Bentleys or entirely superfluous SUVs with 400hp, ridiculously small interiors and all-wheel-drive, which is highly important every time you drive them up that little step at the side of the road at the entrance to your local shopping mall… these kinds of cars have little to no utility value in relationship to the cost – they simply exist so you can park them in front of your house for extended periods of time, so that your neighbors can see how great you are. Actually, if you’re seriously great you’ll have at least one SUV, one M Beamer and a Bentley for when you feel like it… to the companies selling these cars it doesn’t matter one bit whether the customers pay cash or have banks pay for them. And the sales numbers for these kinds of cars are almost unimpacted by fiscal crisis, as the people who buy them usually end up on the winning side of things. This is not the largest market in the world, but it’s surely larger than the GA crowd today, so a smart move to try to get into there. Imagine, next to your Porsche Prollwagon you can now park your new Icon, nicely painted in the same finish as your new jet ski!
I think people having the mindset to waste money on nonsense new production cars will not learn to fly. Its too scary for them 
Silvaire wrote:
I think people having the mindset to waste money on nonsense cars will not learn to fly. Its too scary for them
Well yes, and that is what Icon is trying to address by making the A5 up to look like just another fun vehicle, plus the admittedly highly sensible idea to integrate and make explicit use of a AoA indicator, which would also be useful for the rest of the GA fleet, at least a lot more useful than ELTs, 8.33 radios or fights over SIDs or LP levels…
Dooga wrote:
latest-greatest cars like AMG Mercedes, M Beamers, S Audis, Porsches with seat heating..
Porsches used to be pure sports cars, that’s what the seat heating comment was referring to.
It’s a good sign the A5 gets mostly critical remarks on this forum because us spam cam pilots are not the target market. I personally know more people that would be interested in owning an A5 than a typical GA airplane. There the limiting factors mostly are regulations (useless in e.g. Germany) and how much precious spare time is required until you are allowed to fly it. Spending $250k for a toy is an easy and quick decision for a lot of people but following a pilot training is more of a hurdle.
Spot on. Just have a look around the Mediterranean and see all those hundreds of marinas with hundreds of thousands of Yachts and you will agree that there is no shortage of people who can spend huge amounts of money on tools which have very little utility / transport value.
If GA could attract a small fraction of those people, we would have new GA boom like in the 70s.
On the wider scale, money is indeed not the problem.
Learning to properly and safely use an airplane is more of a problem. Flying will never be easy, even if the airplane only has a joystick, a PFD and 5 switches.
Dooga wrote:
italianjohn, agree for the aviation market as it is – but that’s exactly the point: that market is a dead end, literally, as the few remaining people who find the concept of flying on your own intriguing slowly die off, and the half-century old fleet with them.
I believe a big part of the A5 gamble is to get at new wallets – find buyers who never would even have considered flying otherwise, as the hardware and hassle just doesn’t appeal to them.
Yes, I agree with what you are saying, for me there is the difference between attracting passionate people about the sport/hobby, and then just trying to get money into it. It is a very difficult balance with no right or wrong answer. Without the cash injection we are slowly dying off. I feel that there is no motivation to learn and study anything hard these days. There seems to be a more general view towards instant gratification with no work. Flying certainly doesn’t sit in the instant gratification area. It takes time to study and practice, to be safe at it.
Dooga wrote:
make explicit use of a AoA indicator, which would also be useful for the rest of the GA fleet, at least a lot more useful than ELTs, 8.33 radios or fights over SIDs or LP levels…
Whole heartedly agree, but since when have the Aviation Authorities made sense 
Dooga wrote:
but then there is people who shell out $100ks for latest-greatest cars like AMG Mercedes, M Beamers, S Audis, Porsches with seat heating and electronic stability management, overweight Bentleys or entirely superfluous SUVs with 400hp
There the limiting factors mostly are regulations (useless in e.g. Germany) and how much precious spare time is required until you are allowed to fly it. Spending $250k for a toy is an easy and quick decision for a lot of people but following a pilot training is more of a hurdle.
Just have a look around the Mediterranean and see all those hundreds of marinas with hundreds of thousands of Yachts and you will agree that there is no shortage of people who can spend huge amounts of money on tools which have very little utility / transport value.If GA could attract a small fraction of those people, we would have new GA boom like in the 70s.
Learning to properly and safely use an airplane is more of a problem. Flying will never be easy, even if the airplane only has a joystick, a PFD and 5 switches.
I completely agree with the above quotes. The thing about cars, is that the people who buy the expensive ones, will also have cars that they use day to day, and therefore will be “current” on driving a car. Swapping between cars is easy, and the powerful sports/track days cars will not be new to them when they drive them again after a few months.
Also with respect to the boats, I know a few people with boats, as I am sure many on here do too. What I hear from my friends, with the boats (who do sail them regularly) is that there are many boats in their harbours (Port Solent, Woolston, Hamble etc, on the south coast of UK) that NEVER leave the mooring. The owners will show up and just have a party on the boat, with friends. This is absolutely fine, they can do what they like and they are not putting anyone in danger. If the target market of this aircraft is the very rich, “want to show off types” (I want to be specific there, because there are very rich and passionate about aviation types and my comment does not apply to them) then I am worried about how this will unfold. If you have someone who purchases one and does not fly it regularly enough to be safe and current; and has an accident, then I can see the authorities erring on the side of caution and preventing further incidents by regulating further, and thereby pushing up costs or restricting us even more.
I personally think that the idea of the Icon A5 is good, if our assumptions are correct that they want to attract money and people into aviation. However I think the right way to do this is for the authorities to reduce the regulation to the point where people can afford to do it again, but keep it safe (Do we really need ELTs, Mode S etc.). In the few months since I bought mine I have flown more than 2 years worth of my normal annual hours. I feel a much safer and more current pilot because of it and I am really enjoying it again because the stress levels have reduced. I have been able to do this, due to the difference in the rental cost vs. owning a homebuilt category.
