As Bosco said, IFR OCAS is for all practical purposes as VFR i.e. you are on your own.
No, Peter! That is the UK situation. No matter how many times you repeat it, it does not work that way in most countries.
1) OCAS fly as if you were VFR (i.e. manager your own crossing clearance) with regards to danger areas, except what if ‘cleared as filed’ at your departure airport?
“Cleared as filed” doesn’t matter. In most countries (except the UK!) you will get a proper route clearance to your destination even if part of the flight will be OCAS. But in that case, the clearance is only valid in CAS. So OCAS, you have to explicitly check whether D-areas are active and request crossing permissions through R-areas.
In most countries (except the UK!) you will get a proper route clearance to your destination even if part of the flight will be OCAS. But in that case, the clearance is only valid in CAS
The clearance is valid only if
Once you leave CAS, if you later re-enter it, your clearance is debatable.
But the whole Q if what you are really cleared to at any stage is a very ambiguous thing.
The only thing which you are absolutely entitled to do under ICAO is the 7600 situation (loss of comms) and then your departure clearance entitles you to fly the entire route, arrive at the FAF at the filed time, fly the approach, and land 
The only thing which can interfere with that is an F15 (or whatever) on your wingtip, doing the ICAO interception gestures (which you of course carry on a laminated card) 
Everything else (i.e. when your radio is working) is debatable.
The departure clearance (“cleared to EGKA” etc) is just traditional IFR-speak. It doesn’t mean anything.
Each bit of enroute clearance is “probably” real but ATC can modify it at any time and you can’t really argue with them. Well, you can refuse, by inventing a CB straight ahead (the “to avoid” method) but that is fairly radical and best reserved for particularly deserving cases (a certain female German ATCO is the last one I recall ). But let’s say you are at KONAN and get told to fly KOK MAK LNO. That is a clearance allright, but only if they don’t change it. When you get to MAK they can give you a heading of 180, for 20nm…
I don’t think anybody can make an argument one way or the other as to what clearance you really have when flying Eurocontrol (high altitude, CAS) IFR.
The only debate one could conclusively settle is whether the IFR flight plan gets terminated when you initially leave CAS. In the UK, it often does (depending on how long you leave CAS for and where). In most other countries, the FP stays on the computer.
No, Peter! That is the UK situation. No matter how many times you repeat it, it does not work that way in most countries.
Could you please post the full detail, so both myself and the ~500-1000 others reading this daily can get suitably educated?
Could you please post the full detail, so both myself and the ~500-1000 others reading this daily can get suitably educated?
Come on, we’ve been going over this again and again. The UK is unique in its sharp distinction between what is the “airways system” and what is not. You have yourself many times pointed out how you are simply dropped out of the system if you are handed over to London Information. Most countries doesn’t do it that way (to my knowledge none in Europe except the UK).
I’m more worried that the 500-1000 reading EuroGA daily really believe that there is no difference between VFR and IFR in uncontrolled airspace!
So where is the difference, with respect to Rs, Ds and Ps?
I would say very little. In both cases it is still ultimately the pilot’s responsibility to take care of them. (As you said, the ATC clearance you received at the start of the flight obviously only concerns the CAS portions). And in both uncontrolled VFR and IFR, if you want to cross an R, you have to coordinate with ATC. No?
really believe that there is no difference between VFR and IFR in uncontrolled airspace!
Of course there is a difference, in the flight rules, ATC separation, etc. But if you file a Eurocontrol flight plan, in Class G, and it is validated and accepted, it doesn’t entitle you to flying anything.
If there is a military activity there, ATC might tell you to avoid it (if they have you on radar) but they might not.
the ATC clearance you received at the start of the flight obviously only concerns the CAS portions
I don’t for a moment think the ATCO who tells you “cleared to XXXX” has the slightest idea of your route, CAS or OCAS, mil activity enroute, you name it. He is just a guy sitting there, no radar, no maps, with a radio set to the GND or TWR frequency, and reads the same thing to everybody departing All he does is change the destination airport, the squawk (which is allocated by Eurocontrol) etc on each call.
That may be a shortcut but I take from this:
When flying in airspace G – either VFR or IFR – I’m on my own and have to study NOTAMs and other things to be prepared. I cannot expect ATC to watch out for me in any form. I may use them as a resource to get information.
All the other airspace classes allow ATC to control an IFR flight and therefore I can rely on them to vector me around places I’m not supposed to be.
Maybe that is one other reason why there is so much hesitation in Germany to allow IFR in airspace G?
so use VOR radials notation is supposed to help circumventing these weird restrictions ?
Route: ELLX N0135F070 DIK2T DIK DIK2A LFJL
Validation:
PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA DIK IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EB2215B] DIK
thanks to the RAD :
DIK “Not available for traffic
1. ARR EDFH
2. DEP ELLX
Except via ARCKY / LNO / BATTY / ASMOX/ REMBA” H24 EB2215 “1. LoA between EBBUACC & ELLXAPP. Traffic orientation within EBBUFIR
2. To prevent unusual flight planning”
As for the max DCT 0 NM and the STAR requirement i found it….
RAD APPENDIX 5, in France if there is a SID or a STAR you have to use them and if an AD has SID or STAR then max DCT is 0 NM
(exception for LFRC ARR and LFMC LFTF ARR/DEP 30 NM)
if there is no SID/STAR then ARR/DEP max DCT 50 NM
If MAX DCT = 0 then you are out of options when it comes to hacking.
If going Eurocontrol IFR, you can fly only between airports which have sids/stars (which more or less implies they are in CAS).
Stephan Schwab – you have it right.
Maybe that is one other reason why there is so much hesitation in Germany to allow IFR in airspace G?
I don’t know why but many German pilots think that IFR in G is dangerous, because of lack of ATC control, so you could hit somebody. The statistics don’t support that at all but I can see the emotional side of it. If you take a passenger into IMC and he/she asks “could there be another plane here” and you say Yes, they get really worried.
To prevent unusual flight planning
One has to laugh.
Firstly they create many jobs (€100k + generous public sector pension benefits) inventing airspace restrictions.
Then, when pilots try to find ways around them, they issue more restrictions to stop people finding ways around them.
And, all along, ATC ignores the restrictions
When flying in airspace G – either VFR or IFR – I’m on my own and have to study NOTAMs and other things to be prepared. I cannot expect ATC to watch out for me in any form. I may use them as a resource to get information.
The point is that you’re not on your own as long as there is an effective FIS. Many (most?) countries in Europe that allow IFR in class G have integrated ATC/FIS sectors.
All the other airspace classes allow ATC to control an IFR flight and therefore I can rely on them to vector me around places I’m not supposed to be.
Yes, flying IFR in controlled airspace (as well as VFR in B/C/D airspace) certainly has advantages. :-)
Maybe that is one other reason why there is so much hesitation in Germany to allow IFR in airspace G?
I find this strange since the operational experience from other European countries tell you that this is not a major issue, given the traffic density in class G. Several Germans have written here about how pilots on Z flight plans regularly enter IMC below the altitude where IFR begins and that doesn’t seem to cause any incidents. In Scandinavian countries, airlines operate regularly IFR to and from airports in class G. And yes, they get an enroute clearance from the AFIS of the departure airport and that’s the only clearance they need to enter CAS.
