At ESMK we are lucky to have 2 good visual references for the turns at either end (the Absolut factory for 19 and a retirement home for 01, no noise abatment for them, they can’t hear anymore anyway). With a low wing plane it’s easy to find a reference of where the runway should be along the wing span on the downwind. Also there is a road. I guess our circuit is easy.
LeSving wrote:
I wonder if we ever will see a GA aircraft with such a flight control system.100 years from now flying schools will still be operating PA28s and C172, so the answer is no.
In the US turbine circuits are typically at 1500.
There is an article in a Norwegian online magazine about circuits with the F-35 today. They fly downwind at 1500 ft AGL approximately 1.5 NM from the runway at 200 kt. Funny thing is, they hardly practice circuits or landings at all, even though the F-35 only exists in single seater version. He (the main instructor on F-35), writes it is so easy to land, there is hardly any idea practicing. On the runway, the aircraft automatically go straight ahead with no need for adjustments of the pilot, even in strong cross winds. For landing it has two systems (in addition to manual landing). One system is the “APC” (Approach Power Compensator). This system will keep a 13 degree AOA by trimming and adjusting throttle. Another system is used together with the APC, the “IDLC” (Integrated Direct Lift Control), a part of the flight control system. This will let the aircraft increase or decrease flight path angle without changing AOA by pushing or pulling the stick.
I wonder if we ever will see a GA aircraft with such a flight control system.
The flying club that I fly for uses a 800 ft circuit with a continuous turn from the downwind leg to final aiming to roll the wings level at one mile / 400 ft. The workload for a student is quite high and so it is essential that students are not rushed into the circuit phase of the training before they have fully grasped accurate flying & trimming of the aircraft.
Generally students are being sent solo at about 11-12 hours total time, this is below the average these days but due to the tight circuit they do get a lot of landings per flying hour.
Flying tight circuits is not beyond the ability of the average student provided the first part of the training course is followed correctly and I get the impression that this is sometimes rushed to get onto the circuit phase.
The one extra thing we do have to brief for when getting onto the navigation phase is the large circuit patterns the student can expect at most civil airfields but they have no trouble fitting in with this ( but are a little bemused as to why the circuit is flown this way)
Looking at mh’s photo, the downwind looks to be about twice as far from the runway than I would typically fly in either of my planes (at either 65 or 100 kts in that postion).
That is about 1200 to 1500 meters abeam the runway. When I’m more or less alone I like to fly it a bit tighter, too, but the picture was taken for the homepage and to give foreign pilots an idea of the sight in the pattern. I think most pilots who don’t fly much more than minimum hours feel better if they have a bit time to prepare for landing and I don’t think it hurts if they take their time. It’s safer than unnecessary stress in the cockpit of a 90-knot-brain – if you get my drift.
ChuckGlider wrote:
An extended ‘bomber’ circuit would have put me in a field once or twice removed from the threshold.
How is that even possible? I can’t imagine anyone doing circuits that big. A C-172 has a glide ratio of about 1:10 or thereabout. 1000 feet AGL, and you have to be 10k feet away from the field. That is 3000 meters away. Surely no one fly more than 1000 meters away on downwind when the alt is 1000 feet? At 45 degree angle and turning base, you end up at 1000 meters away on final, still at 600 feet or thereabout, well within gliding range. This is a BIG circuit, the “PPL way” like I learned it. Final takes for ever.
Reflecting on how it went for me when learning to fly I recall having difficulty in deciding just when to turn Base. The instruction was to turn in when the threshold was 45° behind the wing (C152). Invariably I would dither, the Downwind would extend and the instructor, probably recognising that I was on the verge of overload, let it go.
Well, letting it go can be read as ’that’s OK’ so longer circuits sort of became the norm and I don’t recall it ever really being corrected under instruction. I think too there was a thought that we students needed more time to get settled on Final approach so that the extended Downwind was seen as beneficial.
I don’t think my experience was much different in that regard from that of my student contemporaries and it was only after we qualified and I started going places with some of these people that we began to ‘go beyond’ what we had been ‘taught’.
In fact it was only when got my own little aeroplane, a motor glider with a half descent glide angle, that I really started to tighten things up. I consider myself fortunate that I discovered the joy of doing that before my engine first quit on Base leg. An extended ‘bomber’ circuit would have put me in a field once or twice removed from the threshold.
Silvaire wrote:
I’d be interested in what others may think in relation to the downwind offset shown in that photo.
I would also say about twice the distance. But the picture can be deceiving due the angle of the camera lens.
I agree with Mark. Students take time and they need to be able to handle the aircraft correctly. It is for this reason that they really need to understand the basics before undergoing circuit training; too often they are rushed into the circuit where things become ‘busy’.
Personally, I would like support a circuit height of less than the standard 1000ft agl as this would tighten things up.
I’ve spent a good chunk of time teaching students in the circuit, and you do need a bit more time and space to cover all the teaching aspects, especially in the early stages and with a C150 2-up and full fuel struggling for 500 FPM. I did emphasize the need to stay within the ATZ and keep it tight for safety and expediency.
Until the student skill has developed, we generally get to circuit height on the crosswind leg before setting power and trim and then turning downwind, which, depending on the student, can get you fairly wide in the pattern. Teaching flapless approaches, it is easier at first to extend downwind a little to help the student avoid being too hot and high, but, as they learn, to get used to lower power and side-slipping etc. to keep things closer.
It’s not always obvious when you join the circuit that a student hasn’t got the skills that we take for granted and having the patience to give them a bit more space would be appreciated.
Having said that, I think more emphasis needs to be placed on a disciplined, tight pattern as their skills develop.
