I personally think that having two pilots in the front and then acting as a passenger is a waste of resources. On the (very rare) occasions I flew with another pilot in the LHS, I always asked what he wanted me to do, which ranged from “nothing, really” via “the radio” to being asked to confirm the pilot’s idea of where he could safely descend out of cloud while he was getting on with flying and talking to ATC. But all at the request of the pilot.
Airborne_Again wrote:
What do you do if something dangerous is about to happen?
Genuinely, I close my eyes and put myself in the hands of probability. I do the same when being driven by a bad driver.
(Unless I am there as instructor or mentor, of course!)
The last two times I was genuinely concerned for my safety was when I was being flown by a very experienced recently retired airline captain, who was giving me a lift. I didnt’ say anything, but I would avoid being flown by him again.
Timothy wrote:
Genuinely, I close my eyes and put myself in the hands of probability.
You are a braver person than I am…
You are a braver person than I am…
Not really. I am just putting more faith in the SOP of the pilot being qualified than in the unknown world of what happens if I interfere.
How do I know that the combination of what’s in his head and what’s in mine will result in a safer outcome than leaving him to his plan? Maybe I’ve got it wrong, or have misinterpreted.
I don’t want to make mattters worse by creating confusion and doubt in his already stressed mind,
In France unfortunately there has been a court ruling where an instructor sitting in the back seat (in a four seater) had been declared responsible for something that went wrong on a flight.
There are so many legends about court decisions in France that I don’t believe any.
So tell us more about that decision (date, name of the Court), I’ll look for it, and make a summary-translation and analysys for members to discuss about real things.
Timothy wrote:
When I am flown as passenger, I make it excruciatingly clear that that is my only role, and will not engage in any decision making or suggestions.
I think that would be a good thing for an instructor to do as well! I.e. to get students out of the student mindset and into the in-command mindset.
Timothy wrote:
I am just putting more faith in the SOP of the pilot being qualified than in the unknown world of what happens if I interfere.I don’t want to make mattters worse by creating confusion and doubt in his already stressed mind,
Wow, I don’t think those assumptions can be backed up by statistics, or even the world around us. It’s not like a car where you don’t have controls in front of you. Surely when you are qualified on the aircraft type it might be better to takeover if safety is seriously impaired. Unless you’re talking about complex aircraft that are difficult to fly from the R/H seat.
If you’re worried about the variable sitting next to you, that matter is easily solved… positive application of the left elbow!
In normal situations however I see your point and I think it’s really good to set the correct expectations for the pilot flying as to your involvement.
What authority would I have to take the controls? I suggest that I have none.
If I have no authority to take the controls and the Commander is legally obliged to stay at the controls and maintain control, but nonetheless I decide that I am going to take control, what is his reaction going to be? How can that possibly be predicted?
No, the point at which you need to decide that you don’t want to entrust your life to a pilot is before you leave the ground.
There have been a couple of times when that has been my inclination. I have then suggested (usually tactfully) that more value might be got from an instructional flight than by me just being passenger, which then makes me P1 and the other guy subject to my command. This can be managed by asking judicious questions before departure and turning the answers into learning points, which can then incline the pilot far enough across the other side of the Command Gradient to allow a quick strike 
Timothy wrote:
If …… I decide that I am going to take control, what is his reaction going to be?
If you save his butt, hopefully “thank you!”
If the aircraft is subject to a tech log, isn’t it a reasonable assumption in law that whoever signs the tech log as PIC is the PIC? Also some single crew aircraft specify the PIC station, so unless it is a training flight the person occupying this seat would be PIC?
In the event the instructor is carrying out a safety pilot role, clear briefing on passage of control exchange and verification would be normal before the flight.
Some hour builder outfits require an instructor on board as a safety pilot, not clear who is responsible if there is an incident, but if the instructor assisted it’s likely he/she are described as PIC?
Following the bea report i asked that exact question on a french forum.
The answer among the FI is almost unanim. When they have direct access to controls, they are liable and will intervene if they fill the need.
Some FI even refuse to board if they don’t have access to controls.
In some accidents, the responsability of the FI who was riding in the back was engaged cause he chose to not take an active part in the decision process which led to the accident.
Problem is we don’t have cvr’s so even if it is clear in your head and in yout pilot’s one that you are not acting as an FI but as a simple passenger, if no one is there to confirm this point, your responsibility is at risk.
This being said, I’m not an FI, but when in an SEP, I always give my point of view in the decision process, and by two times I took controls over the Pic to avoid an imminent incident.
