jkv wrote:
Probably because the Dutch government wants to abolish GA in general… (My personal opinion)
Shared by most pilots in The Netherlands
chrisparker wrote:
If you have an 8.33 radio you should enable 8.33 and leave it enabled. I don’t understand why some people keep it switched off.
If you don’t fly anywhere regularly that uses 8.33 frequencies, it subjects you to three times as much knob twisting.
2018 is the deadline for VFR, that won’t take long.
The deadline for the carriage requirement. It still remains to be seen which CAA’s will actually apply 8,33 for VFR-only services such as FIS and INFO. I feel confident mine will show a good deal better sense than the Dutch. I have similar confidence in the German and French authorities.
If you don’t fly anywhere regularly that uses 8.33 frequencies, it subjects you to three times as much knob twisting.
Exactly what I meant to state.
Dutch Military gave me 8.33 last year, on a frequency apparently used by VFR GA.
I also got 8.33 assigned in Germany a year or so before that. I recall there was nobody answering and when I went back to the previous one they gave me a normal one 
I have had 8.33 a few more times since, IFR in CAS, but don’t recall where.
It still remains to be seen which CAA’s will actually apply 8,33 for VFR-only services such as FIS and INFO.
That is an extremely good Q. IMHO it would be sheer stupid bloody mindedness for the general FIS frequencies to go to 8.33. But one cannot rule that sort of motivation out, in some parts of Europe… or an amazing level of stupidity / lack of awareness of the existence of GA. In any other field of human endeavour I would call that “entrapment”, equivalent to locating a speed camera on a downhill stretch of an open road (and yeah we all know that happens everywhere 
).
As regards the OP, the interesting Q is how they might enforce it. Obviously legal action is possible internationally for collecting civilian fines (may not be worth doing but that’s irrelevant) but this is a criminal matter, not a civil matter. Under ICAO (sorry no reference) the pilot’s state of residence is obliged to go after the pilot, on behalf of the state in whose airspace an offence was committed. I got this in 2003, courtesy of the DGAC, over one of their then almost unublished nuclear power station TRAs. I got away with it because of the circumstances (not notamed, not on the charts, in receipt of a radar service, etc). In this 8.33 case, NL could ask the pilot’s country of residence (I don’t know where it is) to go after him. They can’t do it directly themselves.
The letter I saw was written in poor English and, among other things, in effect said that if you do it 3 times, so the fine total reaches €22500, then no more fines will be levied and you can stop worrying and just carry on
Peter wrote:
IMHO it would be sheer stupid bloody mindedness for the general FIS frequencies to go to 8.33. But one cannot rule that sort of motivation out, in some parts of Europe… or an amazing level of stupidity / lack of awareness of the existence of GA.
Huh? 8.33kHz equipment carriage is the law for IFR already and will be for VFR in 2018. Installing a 25kHz radio in a VFR aircraft is already against the law today. No radio equipped aircraft will be allowed to fly without 8.33kHz in 2 years from now. If everybody has the equipment, why would be it be “sheer stupid bloody mindedness” to use it? Those frequencies will pop up more and more, airfields will get them assigned, ATC/FIS units, one after the other.
Peter wrote:
The letter I saw was written in poor English and, among other things, in effect said that if you do it 3 times, so the fine total reaches €22500, then no more fines will be levied and you can stop worrying and just carry on
The letter was from Holland. It’s a courtesy they write in English, the official language of the Netherlands is Dutch. The French would have issued a French letter. The Germans would have written the letter in German. Obviously the the fines wouldn’t stop at 22,500 € but they would escalate it to the next level.
Peter wrote:
In this 8.33 case, NL could ask the pilot’s country of residence (I don’t know where it is) to go after him. They can’t do it directly themselves.
I am not sure that is true. ICAO has no legal meaning, it’s just an international treaty. As a citizen you can never make claims based on ICAO provisions. The legal systems in the EU are very well setup to prosecute everybody everywhere. Also I don’t think this is a criminal matter, it’s an administrative offense but the legal qualification depends on the country. The chances of being able to escape due to your citizenship (we don’t know where the pilot is from) are slim.
Hmmm; fines are a criminal matter, no doubt.
What happens increasingly is that fines are levied without the person getting a formal criminal record. That is the case for e.g. UK speeding tickets (up to a point, presumably) but not drunken driving. This is done for admin reasons (so it doesn’t invoke the Court system) and it does not get around the criminal nature of the matter. Accordingly, it cannot be enforced via an action in the civil courts, like a normal civil debt.
I am not surprised these fines are not actually paid. I don’t think there is much international co-operation on it, between the CAAs.
My comment about 8.33 FIS is just practical: there is an awful lot of simple planes, vintage planes, microlights, whatever, and a lot of these people don’t read pilot forums or aviation mags, and they will never change from 25kHz. So by moving these stations to 8.33 you just create a rope for your own (ATC) neck, next time somebody who is outside the system, who doesn’t even know how to work a Nokia 6310i, busts your CAS and you cannot call him up and he cannot call you up. So do you launch an F16 and shoot down some old geezer in a WW1 bi-plane?
Installing a 25kHz radio in a VFR aircraft is already against the law today.
If there is no requirement to install any radio at all, how could installing a 25 kHz radio be illegal? Would installing a bird cage or a fridge be illegal (disregarding W&B issues, obviously)?
The phrase ought perhaps to read “the requirement to carry a radio can only be met by 8.33 capable equipment” or some such?
Peter wrote:
Hmmm; fines are a criminal matter, no doubt.
That must be country dependent. Around here, criminal matters (felonies) can be punished either by fine or imprisonment. “Administrative offenses” (like not being able to use 8.33kHz spacing when required to do so) can be punished with fines, but do not leave traces in one’s criminal record.
Yes; agreed. That is the general UK position for stuff over which you get just a (small) fine.
However the difference is that if you keep doing it, eventually you will go to jail, and then there is no argument Or if you don’t pay the fine you appear before a criminal court, not a civil court.
All I am getting at is that I don’t think these fines can be internationally collected (special provisions have been made for motoring fines) because there is no framework for it. In aviation you have the method I described.
I think this whole issue is quite a problem for whoever you sell your plane to…
Peter wrote:
In aviation you have the method I described.
There are other nasty methods… This is what the French will do to you: Whenever the name of this pilot appears on a flight plan to France (or a the callsign of a company they have open matters with) a team of ramp inspectors will wait for him. Doing the nastiest inspection they can think of (takes up to three hours I am told). And they will always find something. A worn placard here, a loose rivet there, registration markings of the wrong color, a missing page in the flight manual, whatever. All reasons to keep the aircraft grounded until the matter has been rectified.
