My friend works at Munich ATC, and this is what he recommends, I just asked him:
Initial call with Approach:
“G-YORC, FL70, inbound UPALA, info G, with a request”, and after he has identified you you proceed: “Request RNAV GPS APPROACH RWY 25”.
Vladimir wrote:
At about 8-10nm before TD003 still at FL060 I get cleared for the RNAV 36.
Interesting. So the question for the panel is, to what level are you then entitled to descend?
Yes, I know, you ask ATC for clarity, but the clearance has to have a default meaning, right?
And here is the Jepp plate
TD003 is 11nm from the airport, BTW, so 10nm before it (from the south) is still inside the MSA circle (25nm radius). But see the disclaimer there.
Vladimir, look at the chart: it’s 6.9 miles from TRA to TD003 … so how can that be a “30 NM detour” when you come form the south?
Peter, doesn’t a clearance to TD003 imply an altitude of 5000 ft? Probably not huh?
Flyer59 wrote:
doesn’t a clearance to TD003 imply an altitude of 5000 ft
The clearance was “Proceed direct to TD003, maintain FL060 until advised”, so no, it doesn’t.
I won’t argue any more about the descent because I’ve obviously forgotten the details. What I can say is that the airplane could not go down the required altitude in the required space at the current speed and I am absolutely sure about that because I’ve done it twice, the second time with a FI on board and with him we had to make an orbit to lose altitude. But at that approach we were only practicing and were actually VFR and not really going for the RNAV approach. That’s when I asked him about my previous experience and he told me that he sees it impossible to make the approach directly and that the clearance means going through the whole approach.
Sharing this case was in response to your question and just wanted to show that I have these thoughts as well:
Flyer59 wrote:
Thanks, that’s what I’ll try the next time. I have not much experience with RNAV approaches yet (got WAAS last week) so I wonder if they’ll let me join an ARNAV approch at the FAF or one waypoint before the FAF.
Okay, sorry, looks like I didn’t pay attention. If you arrive at TD003 at FL60 you only have 4 miles to the FAF @ 4500, that’s a little tight of course.
Why did you write that TRA would be a 30 mile detour? Just curious.
This is the route planned and actually flown (green). Things are happening around the green X. You can see that the planned route is much longer (even though it doesn’t contain the SID).
Here is the STAR from TRA. You can see that TRA 3D leads to overhead the airport from where the approach is to start:
Maybe a direct from TRA to TD003 could be a possible solution (TRA is marked as a possible IAF by ATC) but the situation is similar if I am kept at the same FL.
I have to start recording my flights on a camera with ATC sound so that I can analyse them better and be more exact…
That’s what I meant, and it’s on the IAP chart too: TRA – TD003
Flyer59 wrote:
That’s what I meant, and it’s on the IAP chart too: TRA – TD003
What is the difference between TRA – TD003 and ZUE (or close by) – TD003 (except that the second one is not published)? Same clearance by ATC “direct to TD003, maintain FL060” would lead to the same result except from TRA you would have a 34 degree turn to the left instead of a 5 degree turn to the right.
The clearance was “Proceed direct to TD003, maintain FL060 until advised”.
But you were advised that you were cleared for the approach, so I’m trying to probe what that means.
