PPL in Germany

Just stumbled upon this old thread. So, did you ultimately move to Germany and get a PPL, @Yardi_z ?

Peter wrote:

That sounds at least 2x of what a school would charge for a 172 with an FI.

Agree. The commercial outlet I am renting C172s from in EDDV charges about 170 €/h wet for a C172 plus 40€/h for the FI.

For each session with a C172 I ended paying roughly 500 EUR/hr

That sounds at least 2x of what a school would charge for a 172 with an FI.

There are certainly flight schools in Germany, but I think most of us learn at a flying club. And I guess, like my own club, are not into making tons of money. Many of us the volunteer in running the club is various capacity. These clubs have well maintained aircrafts to fly. My instructors included pensioners who train as hobby. The rates are very similar to what MedEwok mentioned.

The language hurdle should be considered during the start of training if you’re not comfortable with German. Even if you are, you might not understand the local terms, not found in the books ;-)

The experience described by RigiSobi sounds very negative. I’m not saying that it is impossible to have such an experience when doing flight training in Germany (or anywhere else for that matter) but it is far from the norm.

My training in Germany was very nice, although it should be said that I am a German native and did the course in German, at Flieger Club Leer e.V. in EDWF.

First of all: Flight schools are not necessarily businesses, especially not in Germany. Many aero clubs also offer PPL training. These clubs are legally obliged not to make a profit, so they have no incentive to fleece you.

In my training I had only to pay for the time between take off and landing. For the Aquila A210 (a 2011 model, later replaced by a 2016 A211 midway during my PPL) I was charged 150 €/hour wet. I was sent a separate invoice by post after each flight. An additional 30€/hour was paid directly to the instructor. The club had three, one younger than me and two middle aged guys. The one I mainly flew with was a school teacher for math and physics and only did PPL instruction as a paid hobby. He also had a CPL/IR (H) and earned money that way, plus he was an experienced glider pilot. Very relaxed and knowledgeable about everything that flies.

Availability of the aircraft was okay on weekends and excellent on workdays. It was mostly down to my schedule, not to my instructor, that I took 1.5 years to complete the training (My wife and I actually had two children inbetween).

Of course everything was in German but all instructors also spoke English, at least at level 4 I’d say.

As for the bureaucracy in Germany, this is not as bad as it is often made out to be. Yeah, you need to fill out lots of forms, but unlike most other countries there is no corruption taking place, what you have to pay in fees is very transparent. Various fees made up maybe 600€ of the total cost of the PPL, which was about 10k€ total and done in the minimum time of 45 flight hours. Over 75% of the total cost was fuel (mostly MOGAS) and rental cost.

Depends on which academy you will enroll at. Instructors in the one that I started off my training in Germany barely spoke English or avoided to do so.

I would also suggest you check the ages of instructors. Stay away from schools employing retired CFIs. You might end up dealing with senile instructors that keep on asking the same questions or kicking you in the elbow when you touch the rudder pedal during landing!

Invoices: Flight Schools are businesses. Be careful with their advertised prices. In my case, I ended up paying almost double. My school charged me separately for aircraft rental, instructor fee, briefing fee, landing fees, card membership fees, VAT etc. For each session with a C172 I ended paying roughly 500 EUR/hr. You should normally pay for airborne time as opposed to Hobbs. At the beginning of your training you will spend quite a bit of time on the ground after starting the engine with checklists, preparations, instructions etc. In winter time, you’ll have to wait for the engine to warm up before runup/take off.

Instructor availability: Ask about instructor availability. The one I attended was literally abandoned in summer time with most instructors dropping parachutes, others in cruise ship vacations and most aircrafts in maintenance.

Prepayment: Yes, they would love to have you to pay a lump sum at the beginning. Don’t fall for it! Simply state that you do not have a German bank account and that your credit card has a monthly limit. I strongly suggest that you do not pay more than 2 sessions in advance.

Bureaucracy: Ask about the redtape. Germany has strict rules and procedures. They will assume by default that you are a terrorist and will perform some background checks, which will take some time. They will even check if you have points on your driving license! I know many people that could not renew their PPL license due to this (could never understand the logic!) During this process, be prepared to deal with various gvt agencies.

Ground school: In English? My school only had ground school sessions in German language. Thus I had to study myself from various online material.

Aircraft: If you plan on purchasing your own aircraft, I would definitely suggest that you transition to this particular type sooner rather than later during your training. Once you get the basics, don’t waste anymore time with an aircraft that you won’t be flying ever.

Having said all that, it all boils down to how you feel with your school and instructors. If you are happy with your progress and think that you’re getting your money’s worth, then you are the happiest man in the world!

Noe wrote:

I would prioritize first things such as:

I would also recommend you check the method of billing. Some charge based on Hobbs, others charge based on airborne times – over a typical PPL training period, the difference can be up to 10 hours at xx € per hour.

I flew and soloed at 16 but my real flight instruction was more than 20 years later… My first lesson then was hand propping, my second was taxiing and low speed ground loops & recoveries. This was all done in the vintage tail dragger I’d bought six months before and repaired. On the third ‘flight’ we actually flew… I learned how to fly in that plane, it was initially demanding but I didn’t know or care, plus a relatively docile Cessna in which I subsequently took the practical test. By that time flying the Cessna was so relatively easy that I could concentrate on learning all the things you have to do while airborne, navigation and communication etc, while also flying the plane.

Over a longer period, my view is that it’s good to fly one type enough that you’re not overwhelmed with controling a different new machine, and so can refine all the other important skills, but it’s also important to fly enough different types to understand the range of differences that different types possess. In particular if you are interested in vintage planes, the range is much wider and the adaptation is more demanding.

You will enjoy it a lot, but not sure if it is the quickest way as Noe mentioned (you will have more constraints for a vintage learning: cross-wind limits, weather and instructors availability…) while on C152 you can knock of all of the training quickly and convert as soon as you get your licence

Also, you may not be able to do all of it on a vintage, I know people who tried a full PPL with the Tiger Club in the UK, they still have to do few hours on in equipped aircraft for instrument appreciation but you will have a legacy if you did your first solo on a T6/Cub