how do you get an IFR clearance at a small airport with low clouds?
In general, in Europe, you can’t get a full IFR departure clearance unless the airport has
What is sometimes possible (e.g. in the UK there is a very poorly publicised phone number for London Control) is to get a provisional departure clearance (squawk, track, and not much else) but AFAIK there is no way to get cleared into CAS (VFR or IFR) with a phone call. Otherwise, the departure tower will get the provisional DC for you, or you get airborne and get it from / via the local FIS.
Yes – it’s tricky if it is OVC002 and there is nobody around 
Legal in the UK and other places where IFR in G is allowed, but you will be in IMC long before you get the clearance, so you need to have good obstacle awareness (easy these days).
Do you just launch into the clouds and stay in class G?
In the UK, yes, 100% legal because IFR in G is allowed, even non-radio
It is done everywhere, to varying extents and for obvious practical reasons, though not always non-fatally.
How do you know where class G ends laterally and vertically?
You look at the VFR chart e.g. here is a piece around my base, with the CAS bases highlighted in yellow, and all below is Class G
So you can see I can climb to 5400ft, if going east or west. Tactically this can be a problem if the base is say 2000ft, the 0C level is 3000ft and the tops are 10000ft Unless deiced, you can then climb to 2500ft, wait for the IFR clearance, and then go up as fast as you can. Or, while in G, you position yourself heading for a blue hole and then call up London Control with a fait accompli i.e. tell them you are on a heading “to avoid”. All fairly obvious IFR stuff
In Europe, to fly VFR, or to fly IFR to/from Class G airports, you must have a VFR chart in some form and must have a means of always knowing exactly where you are on it. I happen to run the above chart as a GPS moving map but there is no non-bootleg solution covering much or Europe. There are tablet products such as PocketFMS or Skydemon which do this job with synthetic (vector) maps. I believe you have similar stuff in the USA; @172driver will know the ones.
In most cases, G doesn’t exist above CAS. This is the only bit I know of in the UK – the Brize CTR, Class D SFC-3500ft AMSL and above it you have G up to various higher levels as highlighted
But just so I’m also clear Peter.
You said to get a pop-up IFR clearance on the radio, is a hard thing to get in the UK and in Europe in general. So when you depart your G airfield, you’ve filed an IFR flight plan on the phone/internet and just activate that OCAS, right? There is no time aspect to it, as in clearance void time?
And if so, why are they so against giving out a pop-up IFR clearance in the UK? Surely, it’s a safety hazard having planes slogging around in icing just because ATC refuses them that. Not to mention the missed revenue by EuroControl by denying people it. Don’t get it.
I probably was still editing my last post while you asked the Q, Adam.
why are they so against giving out a pop-up IFR clearance in the UK?
Various point of view depending who you ask.
In Europe, it is not possible to have IFR traffic in CAS (other than short crossings) unless at least a fragment of the route is “in the computer”. The UK runs similar software to other countries but the UK never paid for the software module to enable this to be done quickly. So they hate doing it. Reportedly it is easier in Scotland (hardly any traffic there).
But I don’t know of any country where it works really easily. I believe German pilots have claimed here (@Achimha I think said so) they can get it. In France it can take 5-10 mins to elevate a VFR flight (flight planned or not) to an IFR one. I recall one time when they lost my FP around Switzerland/France and it took them maybe 20 mins to get a new one into the system (I was at FL150 and obviously in CAS so it wasn’t my problem ).
Another reason is inter-country ATC liason is too much work. For example you will IME never get a shortcut across a piece of another country. And getting them across borders is unusual but does happen. Probably a lot easier at FL300 however.
having planes slogging around in icing
Not ATC’s problem. Tactically it might be, but not at the management level.
Yes – it’s tricky if it is OVC002 and there is nobody around Legal in the UK and other places where IFR in G is allowed, but you will be in IMC long before you get the clearance, so you need to have good obstacle awareness (easy these days).
In the MU2, terrain is not usually the problem. The problem is punching into controlled airspace very quickly while trying to establish radio and radar contact to climb further. I will be at 5000 ft in 2 minutes.
Do all countries in Europe allow uncontrolled IFR in class G? I would presume those countries that don’t then have some means to get a clearance on the ground so you can be IFR from liftoff? If not, it seems like you could get stuck on the ground somewhere not able to penetrate IMC in class G to get to controlled airspace.
[knowing class G limits] You look at the VFR chart
Okay, I am starting to see that to fly IFR in Europe you need VFR charts. That isn’t the case in the US. I fly without using VFR charts here.
So if I understood the process properly, then the way to depart in low IMC is as follows:
1. Identify the lateral and vertical extent of class G above your departure airport.
2. Identify the ATC facility of first contact and have that frequency ready.
3. Load your flight plan such that you have a first waypoint target to reach, or at least a general direction to go.
4. Depart into IMC, on instruments, perform post takeoff clean up and checklist.
5. Prior to exiting class G, contact ATC facility, get radar identified, and get cleared on your route, presumably with a climb into controlled airspace.
Did I get that right?
If you don’t get a further clearance, or can’t reach ATC, you are bombing along in class G eating up ground at a furious pace and no way to get back down to the airport you just departed. Okay, now what?
In the US, we call this the “pick it up in the air trap”. A plane departs, gets stuck under a low cloud ceiling VFR, can’t raise ATC, and ends up hitting something, becoming disoriented, or busts airspace while trying to work all this out just after takeoff. That is why we have the option to pick it up on the ground which makes things much easier. We have a single nationwide phone number you can call to get the clearance, and with Bluetooth capable headsets, making the call inside the plane already running is easy and common.
To be clear here, I’m not asking Europe to change its IFR procedures in time for my visit :-), I just need to know how it is done so I can do it, too.
Mike C.
Here in Europe, we have VMC minima: below 3000ft: Vis 5km + clear of clouds and surface in sight
So you depart VMC, stay in VMC + uncontrolled, while contacting the FIR and ask to arrange an IFR pick-up or (when you want to stay VFR in CAS, I ask them to coordinate my climb at FL 80 of higher.
But when you depart VFR and you are cloud busting, you are VFR in IMC because you still have no IFR clearance and you get to trap yourself indeed when something happens. Although, ATC cannot know you don’t see the surface (they will ask however).
Most pilots wait to depart when the weather is so poor you cannot depart VFR because of cloudbase (f.e. below 500ft) and so.
Do all countries in Europe allow uncontrolled IFR in class G?
I will leave it to others to answer.
Did I get that right?
Yes.
If you don’t get a further clearance, or can’t reach ATC, you are bombing along in class G eating up ground at a furious pace and no way to get back down to the airport you just departed. Okay, now what?
You have a problem. On this trip I flew for about 2hrs without finding any ATC unit awake, over Greece. This is unusual but it can happen.
I have had the same issue departing from St Yan LFLN at a weekend (tower empty) and finding the next two IFR units asleep also, including the one I was supposed to call up
The base of CAS (Class D) there, where not shown, is FL120.
I got someone in the end. This is rare, and will be even more rare in a type like yours and with an IFR FP filed for say FL300 (which will get you taken more seriously) but you need to have a Plan B and Plan C. Probably much more rare in N Europe (France is rather S Europe in many ways, despite having a very good ATC system).
But when you depart VFR and you are cloud busting, you are VFR in IMC because you still have no IFR clearance and you get to trap yourself indeed when something happens. Although, ATC cannot know you don’t see the surface (they will ask however).
That, however, is legal where IFR OCAS is permitted non radio (like the UK) because you can change from VFR to IFR entirely inside your head (need an instrument rating to be actually legal)
In the US, VFR in IMC would be illegal, although the Class G scenario is ambiguous; I recall reading somebody got busted for a departure into IMC but not because he didn’t have a clearance (which is impossible in G) but because he had not filed an IFR flight plan.
In the US, VFR in IMC would be illegal, although the Class G scenario is ambiguous; I recall reading somebody got busted for a departure into IMC but not because he didn’t have a clearance (which is impossible in G) but because he had not filed an IFR flight plan.
IFR without ATC is legal in class G in US. Must be IR and must have filed flight plan, but don’t need to talk to anyone.
There is VERY little class G in the US, however, so this option is essentially not practical. Where there is class G of any significance, there is usually large mountains and desolation, so not a problem for a mid air, but not so friendly if you need help or to be found.
In the US, I don’t worry about airspace at all. I file direct to destination, get cleared that way 95% of the time, pick it up from tower, or in the air (VMC) or by cell phone (IMC), and then go fly where they clear me. Simple, no?
Mike C.
Mike what countries are you contemplating flying to? Each has its own little quirks.
One more thing what do you plan your route of flight to be over the Atlantic? Do you have the range to by pass Greenland east and west bound?
Mike what countries are you contemplating flying to? Each has its own little quirks.
Due to the schedule I have to keep, the majority of my available travel time is 3+ day weekends, so the plan is to out and back to each destination separately. Typical travel would be to fly out Thursday afternoon or Friday morning, fly back Sunday afternoon. Some weekends can be longer. Having a 2 leg trip out would be cumbersome (customs airport, then final destination), so I favor places I can fly in one hop.
Proposed destinations are, starting from UK each time:
Oslo, Stockholm, Munich, Berlin, Venice/Florence, Prague, Barcelona, Geneva/Lausanne, Dublin, Lille, Copenhagen.
One more thing what do you plan your route of flight to be over the Atlantic? Do you have the range to by pass Greenland east and west bound?
The CYYR BGBW BIKF EGNE route is preferred, longest leg over water is 730 nm. I think I can fly high enough to avoid HF, FL250-280. Total flight time (no wind) KEVV to EGNE about 13.5 hours.
Otherwise, CYFB BGSF BIKF EGNE doesn’t require HF above 10,000 ft from what I have been told. I’d rather take a longer route than have to install HF. The BGSF route is only 113 nm longer than through BGBW, which is 23 minutes in an MU2. The world is a lot smaller at 300 knots. :-)
My still air range with reserves is 1200 nm. Can’t do CYYT EINN, 1700 nm, plus can’t meet the equipment standards for that route anyway (North Atlantic Track system). I can’t cut the corner BGBW to EGPL or something like that, too close for comfort and this is no time to stretch it.
The crossing worries me less than operating IFR in Europe. Really. I will be two pilot on the crossing which helps a lot. The only part of the crossing that has me concerned is that I am going back to the US in mid December. I will allocate generous time and take each leg as the weather allows. I’ve been watching other aircraft on that route, and just a few days ago, a Beech Bonanza did the return trip through BGBW. Saw lots of SETP (TBM, PC12, 208, etc). Today a Partenavia (slow piston twin) did it. Three brand new SR22s did BGSF outbound today as well. So people are doing it in the dead of winter in lesser equipment than I got.
Once I land in BIKF and clear Iceland customs, can I fly non stop to EGNE Retford/Gamston? I was under the impression Iceland was okay for that once I filed a GAR. Or do I need to stop at a “big” airport to clear UK customs first?
Mike C.
mciholas wrote:
The CYYR BGBW BIKF EGNE route is preferred, longest leg over water is 730 nm. I think I can fly high enough to avoid HF, FL250-280. Total flight time (no wind) KEVV to EGNE about 13.5 hours.
Yes, if you can do 250 or above you are fine to go without HF. The route via BGSF may be easier depending on weather at Narsarsuaq. Make sure you look at the notes on state minima not just the approach minima as you will get busted for commencing the approach if the cloudbase is below SM. Also beware of days when they are closed – it gets expensive. I would land at BIRK instead as it is a much nicer place to spend the night than Keflavik (which is essentially in the middle of nowhere).
Otherwise, CYFB BGSF BIKF EGNE doesn’t require HF above 10,000 ft from what I have been told. I’d rather take a longer route than have to install HF. The BGSF route is only 113 nm longer than through BGBW, which is 23 minutes in an MU2. The world is a lot smaller at 300 knots. :-)
Yes but only if you go straight there and not via CYYR. In reality if you have to make the call at CYYR it will add more.
My still air range with reserves is 1200 nm. Can’t do CYYT EINN, 1700 nm, plus can’t meet the equipment standards for that route anyway (North Atlantic Track system). I can’t cut the corner BGBW to EGPL or something like that, too close for comfort and this is no time to stretch it.
Indeed and don’t be tempted to try CYYR to BIRK even with a tailwind. With your range it is too risky as forecasts can be wrong.
The crossing worries me less than operating IFR in Europe. Really. I will be two pilot on the crossing which helps a lot. The only part of the crossing that has me concerned is that I am going back to the US in mid December. I will allocate generous time and take each leg as the weather allows.
Going back I would route via BGSF. You will have a headwind and Narsarsuaq is just a magnet for bad weather.
Once I land in BIKF and clear Iceland customs, can I fly non stop to EGNE Retford/Gamston? I was under the impression Iceland was okay for that once I filed a GAR. Or do I need to stop at a “big” airport to clear UK customs first?
You can fly straight there so long as you file a GAR. You aren’t importing the aircraft otherwise you would need to deal with a customs agent etc the best being at Wick.
The crossing worries me less than operating IFR in Europe. Really.
It isn’t that hard. Doing highish altitude IFR makes it very similar to the US. My advice is just try not to get too up tight about fees and bureaucracy. It isn’t the US but it does work most of the time. Your desired destinations are all fairly straightforward.
