TKS ice protection for a TB20

For a few reasons I do not think a turbo would be sensible for me at this time, so I shall not start a new thread on that a/c subject, but it was an interesting line of thought while it lasted!

Any thoughts from the collective re my initial query related to determining the utility of prop only TKS (N/A engine) and the impact having / not having prop only TKS would have on flying days so that I can decide upon the importance to myself of prop only TKS in my selection process would be much appreciated.

I would say go for the prop TKS one. Avionics, while not an easy task, is definitely more standard and should give you less headaches. That said, check the prop TKS works before buying !

Personally I would prefer an aircraft that climbs slower and lower for a decrease in maintenance cost and downtime. Easier to wait one day for the weather to get better than cancel the trip because the auxiliary starboard turbo pump has failed (and only one shop does this, and they ask for 3 months and 12K for an overhaul and so on…..:( ).

Peter wrote:

I could write a cheque for a TB21GT anytime (assuming I found one, which is another matter since they are rare, especially good ones) but would still not buy one, because I prefer the near-100% uptime of my TB20.

Why on Earth would you do that Peter? It would cost you ages and a lot of effort to get the new aircraft up to the standards and level of confidence you have with your aircraft.

Peter wrote:

Of the TB21 owners I know, downtime has been a large factor, and of course it rarely gets posted. You get engine work, turbo work, exhaust work…

Oh well…just like you managed to bring your aircraft to the 95% dispatch level, you surely could bring a TB21 to a similar level. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get there with little owner involvement just taking the aircraft to a maintenance shop. It is a different matter, but few owners are willing to pay the extra 10-20 manhours per event to have their engine compartment tidied up, hoses and wires re-routed properly, marginal parts and known-issue items replaced proactively…exhaust removed and rewelded or replaced for minor flaws before they become an issue, known problem parts proactively stocked by the owner …

Shops make more business turning around quick standard inspections for a reasonable charge an then hoping the customer returns based on their low price or some ‘unfortunate fault’
Hence the maintenance shop market rarely delivers that and then with a very high price.
Yes the effort is higher with a more complex machine, but as all owners know: unless you stay ahead of the maintenance game in all senses, the aircraft bites (I mean grounds) you back. It is just bigger and more frequent bites the more complex it is, but most of it avoidable via the same process.

I used to own a NA 177RG with complex avionics and interfaces and retractable gear, flown in wx, transatlantic, arctic, high altitude but had only two cancellations and one mid-duration unscheduled grounding due to technical problems in eight years and 800 hours. Several of my neighbours’ 172 and PA28 used on local flights spent months grounded for several technical issues .
Our current airplane is a P210 and we are still getting it up to our standard, so we are not there yet, but I cant believe a TB21 is more difficult to manage.

As to TKS:

1. @Steven_P ’s original question was on TB20 VFR+prop deice vs TB20 IFR+no prop deice.
2. I diverted it to TB20 VFR+prop deice (with IFR upgrade) vs TB21+prop deice.
3. @Peter ’s comments are on TB20+full TKS vs TB21+prop deice

So not exactly the same comparisons. For the third one, I would be in agreement with Peter that there are occasions where we would both prefer the TKSTB20 vs the TB21.

If we look at four groups of IFR missions with regards to icing wx scenarios vs the TB20TKS and TB21 propdeiced:

a) T/O+climb through a thick icing layer with confidence that TB20TKS performance on the day (temp+weight) will put you on top out of ice
b) T/O+climb through a thick icing layer without confidence that TB20TKS performance on the day (temp+weight) will put you on top, incl FZFG+FZRN
c) All other icing scenarios
d) All no-icing wx scenarios

a) Is Ok for TB20TKS but NOT OK for TB21prop
b) Is NOT OK for either
c) Is OK for both but the TB21 will do better in most cases, giving you more options, especially in multi-icing-layers, low-performance (high weight/temp) scenarios
d) Is OK for both

So it is really a matter of how critical a) vs c) is for you. If high-weight/temp scenarios are not that relevant then a) seems more reasonable. In my case I need to carry 350kg-worth of family at 1000NM or 450kg-worth of friends at 600NM in Southern EU temps so I push more for c).

I have zero experience with TB21’s so my comments are all turbo-generic more than TB-21-specific.

So going back to @Steven_P ’s original question , and given that:

• he is only looking at the aircraft with a 3-5 year horizon (so potentially being a first step towards something more capable)
• no specific mission requiring the high-performance scenarios
• and given the scarcity of TB21’s
• lacking any explicit deep mechanical inclination and
• this being the first experience in aircraft ownership…

it all points to @Steven_P making the right choice for a VFR TB20 +propdeice and converting it to IFR. Even better if you can find the right one already converted. If converting my advice would be to get a quote from a couple of avionics shop in advance of the purchase, ensure it includes a GPS-coupled A/P and an engine monitor if not already installed, and get all the help you can in the purchase process.Ah, dont forget to get yourself an ADL from GOLZE (*)

* I have no connection to Sebastian Golze, other than being a customer with no special discount.

Thank you all so much for the comments and feedback; really helpful. Having studied all I agree with the general consensus to go for TB20GT prop deice and have that fitted accordingly with IFR avionics. I have tried to find an aircraft that is pre-configured without luck, but there are clearly merits is building the “ideal” set up subject to price. Thanks to @Antonio for the preliminary avionics advice – I think I’ll start a fresh thread on the subject of upgrading if I cannot find one in existence. I’l let you know how I get on.

Outboard one…but difference should be small?

Survey on TB20GT G-DMAH with prop TKS completed yesterday and passed with flying colors (anyone interested in a survey at any time – Riad of Plane Integrity http://www.plane-integrity.com/ was excellent and gave lots of pre-purchase support prior within his price – he also goes overseas if required). Also had an avionics survey and turns out it is IFR equipped Just need to upgrade a Bendix King radio to 8.33 KHz for next year. The learning now continues. Thanks to all for you valuable advice.