Agree. It was really a comment regarding how incredibly helpful French atc have been and that when a bit stuck (many hundreds of flying hours ago) they came up with a SVFR transit to help me.
That was my first trip abroad and through France in 2007.
I enjoyed your trip report and perhaps that eastern French airspace won’t be as daunting as it looks.
Re the class A….probably unnecessary to mention, but in Europe, one should rather not compel ATC to clear you VFR into a class A. They might always file a report…
Inactive SUAs and class A airspace are obviously two different animals.
I found this a really helpful post.
I am planning to do Vfr London to stuttgart for a weekend in may. I was looking at nancy for a break half way. I estimate 3.5 hours flight time.
I looked at the airspace restrictions and it looked almost impossible on the French side but helpful to know that it seems doable.
Everytime I do a long trip Vfr though France I spend hours looking at the military airspace and stressing over the impossibility of it all. In the air usually all the difficulty just goes away and I have luckily always been cleared through everything. Even when I got a bit stuck in Paris in a corner of class A (creuill) airspace. In they end I think they thought the easiest thing was to clear me through and I was most grateful
Mrs echobeach comes from near stuttgart and I have promised I will fly her home this year. (I have been commercially into stuttgart more than 20 times per year at some stages of life )
Berlin was easy. Maybe this is also possible.
SUA is an ICAO term, but yes, it is more widely used in the US than here.
However, it’s also used and defined in CAP740, for example.
Those special use areas mentioned on that Jepp legend are something else and seem to be unique to slovenian airspace.
SUA =special use airspace… Danger, restricted, prohibited…the whole lot.
You may find this interesting, boscomatico
The above is from the Jepp chart legend. Do they now group “Danger, restricted, prohibited” as “SUA”? I don’t have any very recent ones in paper form.
I also don’t have any French Jepp charts in paper form.
SUA is a widely used concept in the USA.
I’ve had mixed results with the FIS service, in my case in southern France.
From great service, such as the service I received when I flew VFR from Mallorca towards Chambery in 2012. They informed me that an active R area was ahead on initial contact, over the mediterranean, and suggested another routing and assisted with clearances. (towards Marseille instead of Montpellier)
In the same area I’ve had trouble of getting clearances in controlled airspace to descend due to clouds (to remain VMC ), got the most bizarre responses.
I really want to encourage pilots to part with their fears of the french aispace and go. Which absolutely doesn’t mean there is no planning required. Common sense.
I agree with that. Just stay clear of those reactors ;-)
SUA =special use airspace… Danger, restricted, prohibited…the whole lot.
Maybe we have wires crossed.
These
are Restricted. Is that what you mean by “SUAs”?
Well obviously, one would never fly through a ZRT, whether in contact with ATC or not (I know “yours” was not charted, yet). These are something entirely different from the vast military areas that only get activated every now and then.
So maybe a good thing would be to get an explicit confirmation of each mil area crossing.
As Achim said, FIS will get pi$$ed real quick if you start reading out numbers of SUAs to them. A compromise would be a short query “confirm no active military areas to affect”?
Again, it requires a bit of common sense.
In 2003 I busted one of the French nuclear power station RAs. I was under a radar service, with an individual squawk, and they just asked for the name of the pilot. Said nothing about the bust. Then 5 months later I got contacted by the UK CAA saying the French asked them to prosecute me for it. I asked for the radar tape which showed the track a few hundred m into the RA and it showed the squawk etc.
The French are very casual about Class D clearances (they don’t issue them, basically – you just fly while they watch you on radar) but I would not rely on them being quite so casual about some other airspace – especially if they then take 5 months to get around to going after you.
So maybe a good thing would be to get an explicit confirmation of each mil area crossing.
ATC tapes may get wiped before 5 months… in the UK, VFR tapes get wiped quickly but IFR (London Control etc) ones get archived at a GCHQ warehouse (Menwith Hill, reportedly) although I doubt the courts get access to anything there.
During the 5 months I actually flew the same route but fortunately above the 3200ft top of the RA so got away with it.
It is also possible France has totally changed their procedures and the FIS controllers have superb coordination with the military. This is possible – France has a very “can do” attitude in the way their run their airspace.
