We went (drove) to Verona the other day, from Nice. It’s a painful drive, flying it seems attractive. Then today I happened upon my Air Million chart of Italy, so I looked at how it could be done.
Good grief, what a nightmare. There is a vast Class A over Milan and much more, down to 2500. OK, that’s the Po valley, so in principle 2500 should be OK. But you have to get over the coastal mountains, probably somewhere around Genoa, which go up to 4000 or so. And in summer typically have TCUs above them. Also Genoa’s Class C goes up to FL95, no idea whether they’ll give you a transit or not. Just to make it more entertaining, there is some kind of military area just north of Genoa which goes form 0 to 7000.
Interesting to compare with a similar distance flight in the US, say Bay Area to southern Oregon. For which you basically plot a straight line, kink it as needed to avoid mountains and MOAs, and you’re good to go.
Does anybody ever fly VFR to go anywhere in Italy? It looks frankly impossible.
Does anybody ever fly VFR to go anywhere in Italy?
Sure, every day.
The southeast of France, the southeast of England, Belgium, Netherlands… they all look at least as bad.
Suggest you get a proper chart for flying VFR in Italy (Skydemon).
Genoa airspace is very accessible for VFR aircraft. After crossing the coastal mountains, you can descend into the plains before the class A becomes a factor. Going to Verona, you actually go around it, just aim for the point LAISH.
I guess you were referring to LI-D11. That one is small, plus its „only“ a danger area.
Takes a few minutes to plan.
The biggest issue can indeed be clouds forming over the coastal mountains.
Does anybody ever fly VFR to go anywhere in Italy? It looks frankly impossible.
I think it’s the other way around, no one flies IFR GA in Italy, so it has to be VFR GA 
you go inside some +170kts Bonanza or Mooney, you will find it has 25khz radio with no ModeS while operated between 600m grass
The weather is nice anyway !
The Italians are masters at both implementation and avoidance of idiotic regulation. They’ve had centuries of practice in both, whereas Europe more generally lags a bit and has so far developed skills mainly in the implementation aspect.
The Italians are masters at both implementation and avoidance of idiotic regulation.
That’s more true the further south you go in Europe.
The main benefit of the IR is not the ability to fly in cloud; it is the ability to fly in CAS
Italy can be “fun” there too; with FL140 minimum mandated by ATC over much of the north, when IFR.
Italian GA mostly collapsed many years ago and – like Spain – exists mostly as a UL community, flying between strips.
That tends to be true, even though it particularly applies to the south.
The north is more like Switzerland… lots of money and they cling more to the traditional stuff. Listening out on the FIS frequencies bears this out, it‘s usually a half-half mix of advanced ultralights and traditional certified aircraft, some from abroad, some local). Plus, obviously, you need certified aircraft for flight training.
While not prospering, the classic aeroclubs still have sizeable fleets. They are all ATPL schools in the guise of an aeroclub. Actual „private“ flying has indeed mostly shifted to ultralights, amateur-built, vintage, etc.
In the northwest of Italy, the biggest aeroclubs are:
Aeroclub Milano link
Aeroclub Torino link
Aeroclub Varese link
But even smaller cities have decent aeroclubs, like Vercelli, Biella, Modena, and many more.
Then there a a few big non-Aeroclub schools. In the north, I think the biggest is Professional Aviation in Ozzano. link
Northern Italy is highly populated and obviously many young people want to become airline pilots. Not all if them go abroad for their training, as they like sleeping at home at „la mamma‘s house“…
The reason why most schools/aeroclubs have about double the size of fleet that you would expect is because due to Italian ENAC bureaucracy and general inefficiency, at any moment in time, only half the fleet is „in linea“.
Most VFR flying is indeed low-level, with lots of radio work and rarely in straight lines. Sometimes it‘s a pain, but sometimes also good fun. Outside of the northwest, VFR can also easily be done at higher levels. Again, it merely requires some radio work. IFR sometimes required too high levels to make it worthwhile for short and medium flights. And indeed, the weather is usually good. When it isn‘t, it‘s usally either dense fog or thunderstorms, and in both cases, one doesn‘t fly IFR either in SEPs. Except for long distance transitions southbound from Switzerland and vice versa, VFR is usually the way to go.
This is to illustrate a bit why Italian GA is as it is, and it makes perfect sense, so to speak.
I would hazard a guess that the number of actual private pilots (not some kind of ex airline or ex military), living in Italy and holding and using a valid SEP IR or MEP IR is somewhere between 20 and 40. In all of Italy. 60 million people.
I’ve flown VFR to Italy a few times. Yes the Milan area is tight with ClassA above, but then so is Paris, London, Frankfurt etc…
Otherwise, class C/D is readily accessible and the FIS are generally helpful, even if sometimes Milan Info sounds like they operate from inside a bucket in a basement toilet…
Regards, SD..
Hello John,
I’ve done it some times, it’s not great but can be done. we can discuss it further (by phone or in front of a plate in Valbonne :D)
If you are/go north of Parma, the best is to go to Genova around FL65 and then dive north after the mountains, you need to get below the A class, 1000ft AGL. IT’s not the greatest but doable (I have done Milano Bresso some times, perfect for a week end in Milano.
For Torino, I would say that depending on the weather, the best route for me is Lac de Serre Ponçon, Vallée de la Durance, Briancon, col de Mont Genevre, Val di Suza to Torino, otherwise to Genova then route NW.
If you go East/SE of Parma, file for higher than FL075 and you proceed through the D class of Parma then wherever you want (Treviso or Padova are perfect for Venezia, don’t go).
For flying to Tuscany, the best is to go by the sea over Bastia, Elba and then Piombino. At Piombino you can go forther north to Lucca avoiding the MIL, or south along the coast, no limit. Roma Urbe is perfect for Roma. I cannot advise for anything else, I have not done.
Just take a good care of avgas price that a generally higher than 3€/l.
Last thing, as soon as you contact Milano Radar after Leaving France, be prepared to be asked for ALL your estimates :lol:.
boscomantico wrote:
Plus, obviously, you need certified aircraft for flight training.
Our current aircraft which we are in the process of selling (Virus SW 100 LSA) isn’t certified, has an EASA Permit to Fly but is certified for ab-initio flight training. Is that just an Italian thing, that aircraft for flight training need to be certified?
greg_mp wrote:
Last thing, as soon as you contact Milano Radar after Leaving France, be prepared to be asked for ALL your estimates :lol:.
Not just them. Just departing LIPV, switched to Padova who wanted to know estimates for our waypoints such as Porto di Malamocco – which was in our flight plan – and Bassano Del Grappa, which wasn’t.
Much “standby” and searching of maps ensued….
